This really does not sound healthy. The game is released, for a certain amount of money. If people don’t like what they get for their money, they simply should not buy it.
But by now gamers have been so trained to expect to endless content treadmills and all their ilk like mtx and battle passes that publishers/developers get egged on if they don’t work on their game 24/7 and forever.
I think part of the problem is down to how a lot of games come out as “Early Access” which implies it’s more bare bones and will get fleshed out over time.
If a game releases as EA then the expectation is you will get more content until release, if a game just comes out without EA then it’s assumed it has all content and anything new is dlc/mtx/expansions.
I’m not gonna bother addressing Live Service games, wish they would go in the bin with most other MTX.
Absolutely. I will never buy another Early Access game - it’s buying something that is clearly unfinished, and you the player never get a second chance at the first impression. There’s too many other games to expect us to come back and try it again once there’s more content and the bugs are ironed out.
I’m not against early access as a whole, if devs want to get player feedback earlier on in the life cycle and players are happy to be pseudo testers then it’s fine.
I get some people would rather wait and buy when it’s finished, and some studiosd/devs would rather bypass EA and just release the game outright, but I feel both paradigms can exist as long as both parties (devs/consumers) continue to benefit.
Early access definitely has its place. I’ve bought several EA games I really enjoy, and it’s kind of rewarding seeing something go from basic and threadbare to a more complete picture, and knowing I was a part of that is satisfying. I’ve also been burned by EA too, so it’s a double sided coin.
Rogue Legacy 2 was a standout example for me. I was happy to support the developer while they worked on the game, and all progress carried over to the finished product. Granted, roguelikes in particular are really well suited for EA because they’re meant to be played over and over with no real end.
Ground Branch for me. Love the old Rainbow Six games, and I find that newer tactical shooters in general just don’t hit the mark for me. GB still has a long way to go but actually has some original R6 devs at the helm and has an excellent core experience so far, and it’s only getting better.
I don’t know if this recaps the situation accurately, to be honest.
Sounds like the publisher is complaining about some article that’s trying to use the game as a reference on why early access can be a bad thing.
I don’t see how the gamers are an issue though. They will expect what you tell them to expect, this is something for the publisher to manage, and I don’t even think this is a problem for Manor Lords.
All of it just seems like news sites trying to come up with their clicks.
I’d almost love if games were released and getting no updates after that. But only if the games are released in a complete state.
I hate the fact that you shouldn’t play some games as soon as they are released, because you’d be playing the inferior version.
That needs to change.
Eh, EA can certainly be a problem, but it’s also an incredibly useful resource for devs operating in good faith, opening up the field for talent that would otherwise be priced out of making a game at all. Personally, I’m ok ignoring money grabs if it means the barrier of entry for resource starved talent is lowered.
Yeah same. I mean EA is a bet and you can’t expect to win every bet ever. Just don’t wager money you’d miss if it was completely lost.
Manor Lords is early access. At least one patch is to be expected. And of course the publisher is absolutely right. If my memory serves me well one dev developed the game all on his own so far and the challenge of meeting expectations after being a massive success is huge. Hiring more people to get developments going is likely necessary but expanding takes time. Some players have unrealistic expectations in general but even more so when it comes to small indie productions.
The game is released, for a certain amount of money. If people don’t like what they get for their money, they simply should not buy it.
Except you don’t find out the devs/publishers released a broken game until after you buy it. Which is like, way too common. You can direct your frustrations to the publishers who insist on pushing out broken games and fixing them later.
The dev seems to have a good publisher that’s on their side, which is nice to see. I find it bizarre that this rebuttal comes in response to the CEO of Hinterland Studios, the devs of Long Dark, which was in early access itself for ages. Dunno if they think they’re above it all now, but you’d think they would at least be sympathetic of devs facing that kind of shit. Probably just CEO saying CEO shit. Hopefully the Manor Lords dev doesn’t let it get to them much, or at all.
Especially with this game, where the dev and publisher have actively worked to manage expectations before early access. That it’s not at all complete yet. There were so many people super hyped, comparing it to total war and what not. So they made it clear this game is on another scale.
If it had been the other way around, if they had hyped up the game like crazy and made huge promises about the post EA launch content, then yeah, it would be a failure.
And I suppose in practice it also would’ve been a “failure” if they hadn’t managed expectations, due to the hype and the general expectation from post launch content these days… (sigh)But what we got is exactly what was promised, so what on earth is that Hinterland guy talking about.
Good thing I double-checked to see if someone else made this point yet.
Yeah. Not only that, but the splash screen when you launch the game makes it incredibly clear that it’s one guy called Greg (very humanizing) and he’s working on it, but he’s not some superhero.
Very reasonable, I hope the dev sticks to his guns and keeps a manageable pace. I feel that it’s right to expect content updates coming in if the game is marked early access, but so long as you don’t pull a Valheim, people shouldn’t be mad at you
I guess I’m OOTL - what happened with Valheim?
Nothing that bad, but the updates are insanely slow and the roadmap of things they promised in 2021 took 3-4 years instead of one. At this rate the game could spend a decade in early access.
God I wish valheim had been finished
Isn’t it still being worked on?
It is. It’s just slow, and you know how G*mers are about slow dev cycles.
“Dead game! Dead game!” Then how come they just released a huge update for it with the next entire biome a few weeks ago?
Sounds like a management issue, how is the guy paying for the services gets shitted on here
I also don’t understand why I am being scolded by a guy I paid 30 bucks too for alpha testimg…
I never complained.
I don’t think it is targeted at you or me. Ofc there are some gamers out there that would be whipping the dev given the chance.
But the main issue seems to be unrealistic and poorly managed expectations. From management, devs themselves and gamers.
I think the silent majority knows what they are getting into and understand sometimes you buy a melon, but mostly devs just take longer than people want.
the silent majority knows what they are getting into
You are correct here but the headlines like these make me wonder if I am an idiot for spending money on the alpha game. I don’t like the one as paying silent majority. They need to work on their PR IMHO
I don’t think we are idiots for buying certain early access games. I personally judge games based on the state they are in at the moment they are offered and take some of the promises into account. But also so far I have had relatively little issues beyond game balancing etc with many games. And usually crash issues get fixed quick.
The satisfactory devs have a good interaction with their community and manage expectations properly.
So in this case the dev could take an hour every other week and write a blog post or something. That was also a good way the dev of banished used to do it.
Before you throw stones be advised that this team is like 5 people at most, the game just blew up and some gamers are giving it the Valheim treatment wanting faster and faster updates.
Such a childish take expecting AAA speed from tiny homebrew dev teams imo. Obviously progress is going to come slower in most instances, they don’t have a tiny island nation’s worth of man power to throw. That and, I’m sorry, if my homebrew passion project blows up stupid big when I go for early access for seed money / water testing, I promise you I will be taking time off to celebrate the accomplishment.
This shit is a grind. Lots of dedication over a long period of time. Go on, hit that resort life for a minute, you earned it. Come back and finish up when you get some r&r. 🤙
Obviously still expecting progress down the line, but if I’m supporting early access I know what I’m getting into. Indie scene is where the love is, but it’s ma & pa shit. Plus there’s thousands of other ways to waste my time, I’ll check back in later if I’m bored with the game’s current build.
Waiting sucks, but chill. Save outrage for where it really matters, like genuinely shitty devs. Juuust my pocket change. 🙌
The game is released, for a certain amount of money. If people don’t like what they get for their money, they simply should not buy it.
The problem does not lie with gamers. It lies with ‘AAA’ developers who publish unplayable cashgrabs that need years of bugfixing before reaching a playable state, thus leading to expectations of ongoing development. Not that Early Access has helped in that regard.
Oh I meant that, that’s why I worded it that way.
Until they ditch the “live service” model, this will continues. How many big title games today are really sold in a complete no BS state where DLC actually means extra contents? No much I guess.
That stems from the revenue model, and not by gamers.
Minecraft falls squarely in this category. I paid 15$ some 12 years ago and am still getting a yearly update for free.
And yet if you go in the MC community, one of the most common complaints people have is that the updates are never enough and the Devs are lazy etc… I guess this goes to the point of this article, people can easily be trained to have unrealistic expectations.
I’m not crying for Mojang/Microsoft but I can’t imagine how it feels to be an indie dev and have people shit on you because the work you do for free is not good enough.
Minecraft is a special case. They promise a lot and what we got is a version of the game that’s microtransaction hell. Texture packs, mods, maps, etc all cost outrageous amounts of money in the console/windows10 version of the game. The community is mad because they’re clearly spending way more money on making content for the store than doing any actual updates for the game. The most we get is something like a new mob every six months…
microtransaction hell
As far as i know the full game is entirely playable without spending a dime more than the price of the game. You can join an infinity of multiplayer servers or play the game solo from start to finish and beyond, and you still get the yearly update which, despite your statement, includes much more than “a new mob every six months”.
I personally don’t mind that cosmetics and entirely optional non-game-advantaging additional content are paid, as it is what bankrolls the studio to keep pumping out free updates every year. How do you propose they finance this otherwise ?
As far as i know the full game is entirely playable without spending a dime more than the price of the game.
That’s not the point, they took something that was free and community-driven and locked it down so you can only install things from the store where everything costs money. Only specific people even have access to make mods in that version.
as it is what bankrolls the studio to keep pumping out free updates every year.
They’re not a small indie company. Mojang earns hundreds of millions of dollars per year. They can afford to do something with the game other than pumping out dozens of microtransactions a month. They could optimize the good version of the game but actively choose not to. They promised a proper modding toolkit for the game but never made it because it would harm their paid store. The game practically lives off its modding community and in the last 10 years they’ve done nothing for them.
I’d recommend the java version
I don’t know, the bedrock version started in 2011 way before Microsoft bought the studio. It was never free or community-driven, it is cheaper than the Java version, but it doesn’t have access to the free modding community. This sounds like a relatively good non-toxic deal to me, either you pay upfront or you suffer the micro-transactions. If you don’t have the money, you can still play the full game for a relatively low price.
Your implication that they don’t optimize or develop new content for the base game is simply unfounded and proven wrong every year like clockwork.
And yet if you go in the MC community, one of the most common complaints people have is that the updates are never enough and the Devs are lazy etc… I guess this goes to the point of this article, people can easily be trained to have unrealistic expectations.
Tbh I think a big part of the problem is Mojang’s failure to communicate with it’s players, less so the lack of features being added.
I don’t know, they have an annual event, affiliate youtubers who distill the news as they come, “leakers” on twitter. You can’t really expect a studio to pull a 1.16 every year, but short of that it seems there is no way to please the MC community.
I feel like Paradox games falls into this category, problem is everyone is so used to playing the okder title with all of the dlc that people feel the new title is barebones and unfinished.
That is because DLCs add a lot of value to Paradox games (excluding recent controversies) so people wait then grab all DLC in a bundle discount.
Yeah but if you wanna buy say, Stellaris, with all its DLCs, you’re looking at at least $100-$200 depending on the sales. You pay for that bigger game.
Definitely. Age of Wonders 4 was awesome to play at launch, but it definitely feels more “complete” now that all 4 DLCs are out. It feels like it was clearly hacked to pieces to be sold separate.
I don’t care about extra content, it is a welcome addition for games with long-term support like Stardew Valley. If the dev and publisher have a lot of money I do expect long-term bug fixing.
Don’t take early access money if you don’t plan to be giving frequent updates. It’s the nature of the beast.
People don’t expect constant updates from pokemon because when you buy it, it’s “a complete game”. They may drop patches and add content but it’s not expected the way it is from a game supposedly in active development like an early access game is.
Don’t buy an early access game if you expect a complete package.
It’s not expecting a complete package at the time of purchase. It’s expecting one in due time with your support.
What you are describing is a game outside of early access.
Why are those your expectations, then? Seems kind of illogical to look at a system with a history of not that, expect it, then be mad.
You can say it’s not right for it to happen, but to be expecting it just makes no sense at all. Again, I’ll reiterate, you can argue that the system is fucked and needs to change, but, again, expecting an outcome with evidence that it won’t happen, then get mad, is asinine
No need to make things up. My expectation is what we get most of the time. You’re the weirdo acting like it’s not. This article is just a developer trying to move the goal posts of expectations yet again.
Like how much of a cuck for these businesses do you want to be?
It’s not illogical to expect a developer to follow the basic standards of the industry they opted into. It would be illogical to declare them the exception.
Small teams drop regular media and content updates all the time without people dying at their desks. The conversation of their working conditions is between them and their bosses (maybe the state), and not their customers.
You accused me of making things up and called me a weirdo, honestly you’re a waste of breath.
What did I make up, exactly? Are your feelings always this sensitive?
You made up what my expectations were then argued against that instead of reality. Keep shilling though.
You LITERALLY said your expectations, dork. I didn’t make up shit, you fucking said it yoursel
I’m not shilling, but good try with that one
Nah screw that… don’t buy early access games if you don’t think it’s worth it in it’s current state.
Naw screw that. Don’t label it early access if you don’t plan to update it from its current state at a rate that the majority of your fan base expects.
That said the dev in this article has provided 3 updates in 3 months. They’re totally fine by the expectations of all but the most unreasonable people.
Or just don’t buy a game with expectations that don’t match reality and then get mad at other people.
Typical gamer brain rot
But my expectations match the norm! You are stupid.
Again, typical gamer brain rot
Obviously not, otherwise this discussion wouldn’t be happening. You get that right? This thread wouldn’t exist and there would be no point to talk about this at all.
Use some brain cells
OR you are stupid. I’m just not gonna sugercoat it by pretending adding “gamer” to “brain rot” means anything but you exposing your bias.
If you wanna call me stupid, just do that. Don’t tell on yourself.
A gamer is the target audience of the article and this community.
So much entitlement with you lol, yeah and the article is calling you out for being whiney children and demanding things from devs at an unnecessary pace.
Both are true though.
If you want to release your game in Early Access, you should expect to update the game and community frequently.
If you want to buy a game (early access or not), take a look if it’s what you want to play right now, never buy any game, software, service or device that is promising the functionality you want will be coming later. If it does come later, buy it then, never buy on promises.
I remember a few games which didn’t require such sacrifices from developers.
Some even commercial. Like NWN, with people making their own campaigns without, you know, any effort spent by the developers of the game itself.
Of course when the business model is milking players and making it problematic (either technically or by paradigm) to satisfy interest with community-made modifications, then all the load is on the devs or else the game becomes irrelevant. Well, guess whose fault that is.
Riiiight… it’s the users of the product that is forcing the producers to work under toxic conditions, and totally not their money-grubbing capitalist bosses.
Riiiight.
