For all your boycotting needs. I’m sure there’s some mods caught in lemmy.ml’s top 10 that are perfectly upstanding and reasonable people, my condolences for the cross-fire.

  1. !memes@lemmy.world and !memes@sopuli.xyz. Or of course communities that rule.
  2. !asklemmy@lemmy.world
  3. !linux@programming.dev. Quite small, plenty of more specific ones available. Also linux is inescapable on lemmy anyway :)
  4. !programmer_humor@programming.dev
  5. !world@lemmy.world
  6. !privacy@lemmy.world and maybe !privacyguides@lemmy.one, lemmy.one itself seems to be up in the air. !fedigrow@lemm.ee says !privacy@lemmy.ca. They really seem to be hiding even from another, those tinfoil hats :)
  7. !technology@lemmy.world
  8. Seems like !comicstrips@lemmy.world and !comicbooks@lemmy.world, various smaller comic-specifc communities as well as !eurographicnovels@lemm.ee
  9. !opensource@programming.dev
  10. !fuckcars@lemmy.world

(Out of the loop? Here’s a thread on lemmy.ml mods and their questionable behaviour)

  • Oka@lemmy.mlEnglish
    0·
    18 days ago

    The views of .ml mods have not affected me. I don’t really check my subscription feed, only /all or /top->day, therefor im still exposed to all those other communities.

    The only instances that I’ve noticed are missing are porn related, and as an asexual, I don’t have an interest in them. If I did, I could just visit a different site, like pornhub or w/e

    Not all .ml users are tankies, or communist, or foss enthusiasts. I’m just a guy who likes memes and tech

    • OpenStars@discuss.onlineEnglish
      0·
      18 days ago

      It affects people who think that Lemmy.ml is the default instance, as it says itself and people say that any instance is fine to join.

      It also affects people in the batshit insane comments that come from people on that instance, like lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net, that occur with noticeably higher frequency than from other places.

      It also affects people on that instance who talk as if into a void with many people blocking their instance but they don’t even know that. And that effect will increase over time.

      It lowers traffic on the Fediverse, decreasing overall engagement, and drives people away from it altogether. It also lowers the likelihood that you can recommend to people irl to check out the Fediverse - when THAT stuff (e.g. defense of genocide) is seen it tends to turn people off who aren’t used to it or who are tech or culture savvy enough to know how to handle it.

      So it does affect you, I promise, even if not directly, and over the next few months will do so increasingly as your instance turns into more of an echo chamber than it has been in the past, as more people block it either individually or at an instance level.

      Agreed that many of the users are regular people who are just innocently getting swept up in all of this due to the actions of the admins. Just like users of Reddit were when spez did his power flex moves.

      You might want to at least make an alt somewhere else so that you get some experiences that your .ml account increasingly will start to lack.

      • Oka@lemmy.mlEnglish
        0·
        18 days ago

        I hear you. When I first joined .ml, they were pressing for people NOT to join it. To create their own instances so that .ml didn’t become a central entity, and get overwhelmed with users. The latter did occur during the reddit exodus.

        I also agree that they can curate and manipulate the instance to their ideals, which will limit casual users and their reach.

        I don’t feel like I’m being secluded, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. I have seen hate for .ml users and hexbear users, and I really don’t get it. The fediverse shouldn’t be segregating users based on what instance they’re in. That’s like saying all US citizens are awful because they live there.

        • fuckingkangaroos@lemm.eeEnglish
          0·
          17 days ago

          The fediverse shouldn’t be segregating users based on what instance they’re in.

          If an instance is full of authoritarian propaganda and extreme censorship then actual users should leave.

        • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          0·
          17 days ago

          Right, so we should unblock the nazi instances like exploding heads because they have one cool guy there maybe?

          Wait, you need a passport to leave .ml and make a new acct, and have to endure a long process and spend thousands of dollars to become a citizen there? Oh so it’s a lot less like people trapped in the US than you thought I guess.

          Man I’m gonna level with you, I’d prefer if most people on those instances weren’t assholes causing problems everywhere on lemmy since all they are is brigadiers, but since they are, you will be associated with them by being one even just in name. Unfortunate, but human nature.

        • Blaze@reddthat.comEnglish
          0·
          18 days ago

          I don’t feel like I’m being secluded, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. I have seen hate for .ml users and hexbear users, and I really don’t get it. The fediverse shouldn’t be segregating users based on what instance they’re in. That’s like saying all US citizens are awful because they live there.

          I agree with you for Lemmy.ml

          I’m not so sure about hexbear, people don’t randomly end up there

          • OpenStars@discuss.onlineEnglish
            0·
            18 days ago

            I did. I stumbled upon a post to chapotraphouse while browsing the All feed from startrek.website that had not defederated it at the instance level. And similarly I found a politics (or maybe it was a memes) community on lemmygrad.ml that same way too! It seems neither of those are defederated from that server still. And on discuss.online while lemmygrad.ml is defederated, hexbear.net is not.

            Probably you meant people don’t sign up with a login on those instances randomly, but I thought I would add the above perspective at least - that anyone across the Fediverse can get there randomly, if the defederation is not at the instance level.

        • OpenStars@discuss.onlineEnglish
          0·
          18 days ago

          I don’t feel like I’m being secluded

          You probably aren’t… yet, but you will become thus, increasingly over time.

          For the past half a year I have defended lemmy.ml, saying that its users are nowhere near as bad as hexbear.net or lemmygrad.ml (just… visit them, you’ll see fairly quickly what they are all about). And that much is still true - the users are quite often innocent.

          Though not 100% so, and now this with the admins, I will block lemmy.ml soon. I have already started blocking some of its communities, like all the politically-themed memes were simply not fun to keep appearing in my feed, unlike the many other meme communities scattered throughout the fediverse. I am missing out on basically nothing but contention, which has noticeably improved my experience of the Fediverse.

          Yes, I am throwing out some babies along with the bathwater, but I am okay with that. The point is to foster a sense of enjoyment and peace, rather than constantly argue with people who are not engaging in good faith to begin with. I left Reddit for good reason, and believe it or not I would have left it regardless of all of spez’s bullshit.

          Imagine my dismay when coming to the Fediverse, I make the mistake of ONE comment in chapotraphouse, and I got like a hundred replies of the most batshit insane, derogatory, bad-mannered and bad-faithed “arguments”, which lasted for WEEKS long after I stopped responding. I was being “dunked on”, which they LOVE, and which - apparently, much to my dismay upon finding out - is the literal purpose of that community. I almost left the entire Fediverse after that.

          Well, it did not help that I made the same mistake upon replying to a comment in some political community on lemmygrad.ml. It was those two events together that almost made me leave. However, fortunately for me Lemmy v0.19.3 came out just as I was mulling that issue over, so I blocked those two instances, and now I am as happy as a clam. Honestly this issue with Lemmy.ml is nowhere near as bad as those two instances. But it’s still not great, it still impacts people - e.g. it will impact you far more than me - and it will hurt all of us if we cannot recommend to irl people to come to the Fediverse, b/c they are likely to see that stuff and be put off by it. And therefore all the content that they may have offered for our consumption is gone along with it.

          An analogy might be: how much fecal matter is okay to appear in your food? We can spend a large amount of time curating our own experiences here to avoid that, but how likely is a non-Linux-using average person who might want to leave Reddit and come here to be even willing to do that, before they can start enjoying their interactions here? That “shit” demeans us all.

          That’s like saying all US citizens are awful because they live there.

          I suggest a different analogy instead. Crime in the USA in general has gone down substantially in recent decades, but let’s say that you wanted to walk the streets of NYC in the 80s-early 90s. It’s not “just b/c they are there”, but rather “crime is MUCH more likely to occur there, than other places”. If you choose to go there, you are making a probabilistic bet that you will survive the encounter. Maybe you will… or maybe your child will become Batman after you get brutally murdered in front of him, but either way, past some threshold it becomes a foolish bet to have chanced it, in return for what gain even?

          You and I do not get to decide upon the preferences of others. Many will leave Lemmy altogether, rather than put up with this stuff. I at least will block Lemmy.ml, but that leaves the newest and least aware and therefore most vulnerable people to still have to deal with it. In the meantime, we are conversing about it, letting people know about the problems that we all face, together.

          • Oka@lemmy.mlEnglish
            0·
            18 days ago

            I have noticed the high level of political memes and threads and don’t care for it. I didn’t understand why they were so common, I thought we were all trying to get away from politics.

            I will try a different instance and report back.

            • OpenStars@discuss.onlineEnglish
              0·
              18 days ago

              Possibly a good comparison could be memes@lemmy.ml vs. the two alternatives mentioned in the OP - I really wanted to keep the former, but politics kept creeping in and just made the experience un-fun so eventually I blocked it all. I thought perhaps the mods were simply lazy, I had little idea of the systemic issues across lemmy.ml altogether.

    • suction@lemmy.worldEnglish
      0·
      17 days ago

      I mean it’s obviously run by Russia so anything that makes people realise you can’t trust anything that comes out of it is good.

      • алсааас [she/they]@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        0·
        16 days ago

        “Here you see one of the prime examples of a lemmy.world liberal turned xenophobe. Swallowing up the hate towards current enemy of the USA and projecting it onto everything they don’t like”

        Like I don’t think the .ml admins are remotely in the right, but politically illiterate libs seeing ghosts everywhere is funny af
        (or at least it would be if they didn’t generalize everything evil in this world on Russians or Chinese and dominate one of the largest Lemmy instances)

        - Yours truly, an actually Russian person with a migration background <3

  • Lvxferre@mander.xyzEnglish
    0·
    17 days ago

    The way that I see it, the issue with lemmy ml’s administration and moderation is not quite political in origin. It’s about transparency; and I think that this wall of text that I wrote about how lemmy dot ml handled ani.social shows it well, as the dispute in question was not political in nature. (I can abridge it at request.)

    With that out of the way, most of your suggestions boil down to “use lemmy.world instead”. I don’t have anything against LW’s administration, but I think that it’s foolish to concentrate people and activity there even further, it defeats the point of a federation. That instance is already 40% of the MAUs, and hosts the largest comms using Lemmy.

    • barsoap@lemm.eeOPEnglish
      0·
      17 days ago

      With that out of the way, most of your suggestions boil down to “use lemmy.world instead”.

      It’s where big replacement communities happen to be, that’s all there is to it. Avoiding centralisation is a good thing in general but “tired of .ml mods? Here’s alternatives” isn’t the right time to go for it I think. Maybe the admins can come up with a scheme to round-robin disable community creation or something, to spread things out. Also, community migration is in the pipeline software-wise that would help a lot.

    • DefederateLemmyMl@feddit.nlEnglish
      0·
      16 days ago

      The way that I see it, the issue with lemmy ml’s administration and moderation is not quite political in origin. It’s about transparency

      Well it’s really both. The issue is the combination of a number of factors which on their own would be fairly easy to deal with, but put together they are very problematic:

      1. The admins are political extremists
      2. lemmy.ml has a very prominent position in the lemmyverse, because they were first and got a headstart
      3. The admins are actively using their position to heavily police discussion according to their extremist political views. The fact that they’re not being transparent about it is aggravating, but not the root problem.

      This prominent position of lemmy.ml is the fundamental difference with the hexbear or lemmygrad situation. Those instances can easily be contained at the user level: most people can just block and ignore them entirely because nothing interesting happens on those instances for non-extremists. Not so with lemmy.ml, which hosts a number of large bona-fide communities.

      So I think it’s necessary to make a concerted effort to reduce lemmy.ml’s prominence in the fediverse, so that political extremists can’t put their thumb on the scale to nudge discussion in a certain direction. Part of that effort is raising awareness about lemmy.ml’s nature, which is what this PSA does, but that likely won’t be enough due to network effect. It will take more to get people to move their communities to other instances. If other large instances, like lemmy.world, would block lemmy.ml that would provide a real stimulus for a large amount of people to move away from lemmy.ml.

      With that out of the way, most of your suggestions boil down to “use lemmy.world instead”. I don’t have anything against LW’s administration, but I think that it’s foolish to concentrate people and activity there even further

      I agree that spreading out more would be desirable, but on the other hand “just use lemmy.world instead of lemmy.ml” is a very simple and practical suggestion to move away from ml.

    • GamingChairModel@lemmy.worldEnglish
      0·
      16 days ago

      I think that it’s foolish to concentrate people and activity there even further, it defeats the point of a federation.

      It defeats some of the points of federation, but there are still a lot of reasons why federation is still worth doing even if there’s essentially one dominant provider. Not least of which is that sometimes the dominant provider does get displaced over time. We’ve seen it happen with email a few times, where the dominant provider loses market share to upstarts, one of whom becomes the new dominant provider in some specific use case (enterprise vs consumer, mobile vs desktop vs automation/scripting, differences by nation or language), and where the federation between those still allows the systems to communicate with each other.

      Applied to Lemmy/kbin/mbin and other forum-like social link aggregators, I could see LW being dominant in the English-speaking, American side of things, but with robust options outside of English language or communities physically located outside of North America. And we’ll all still be able to interact.

  • haui@lemmy.giftedmc.comEnglish
    0·
    18 days ago

    Please dont use lemmy.world alternatives. World is a much bigger problem in terms of centralization.

    • archchan@lemmy.mlEnglish
      0·
      18 days ago

      I don’t care how big .world gets because it’s the same thing with mastodon.social or pixelfed.social. Coming from primarily centralized services, people will always be looking for a “main” instance because that’s what their brains are used to and that’s what will help adoption. The ones who care will use another instance. As long as fedi has the users and not the proprietary alternatives, it’s fine. We can manage.

      • Scrollone@feddit.itEnglish
        0·
        17 days ago

        You’re partially right, but it would be better if users were evenly spread on many instances.

        Imagine if one instance becomes so big and then they de-federate. For normal users, nothing would change, but then we would have created the new R*ddit

  • merthyr1831@lemmy.worldEnglish
    0·
    17 days ago

    There’s also all of these communities on Reddit if you’re truly unhappy that the volunteer owned and run social media you signed up for isn’t being astroturfed with US-Israeli state press releases.

  • FiveMacs@lemmy.caEnglish
    0·
    18 days ago

    I just block the users who need blocking.

    Enjoy segregating all the communities…I guess

    • BaroqueInMind@lemmy.oneEnglish
      0·
      18 days ago

      Enjoy segregating all the communities…I guess

      I do not know what you think is going on here, but that’s literally the fucking point of all the Lemmys.

      • GoodEye8@lemm.eeEnglish
        0·
        18 days ago

        I disagree. The decentralization is thought through at an instance level, not community level. If it was thought through at a community level we’d have tools to aggregate different communities. The current solution is the equivalent of having multiple steering wheels on a car, nobody thought how you’d actually steer the car so you were given the option to steer each wheel separately. It might make sense on a superficial level but if you thought about how users actually use the thing you’d know it’s not the best way to do things.

        • Crozekiel@lemmy.zipEnglish
          0·
          18 days ago

          People have the ability to block communities as they see fit individually and also follow whatever communities they want and only browse their subscribed list. (steering wheel)

          But when popular communities are on an instance that is very much “get on board or get out” to the point they ban users from every community on their instance for having differing political views, it is very much reasonable to try to start or promote communities run on different instances controlled by better admins. (where the roads go (ok, so building roads is a bad analogy, it is more like when a place has terrible sidewalks so people walk through the grass and they wear in those little dirt-path short cuts and eventually no one uses the sidewalks))

          • GoodEye8@lemm.eeEnglish
            0·
            18 days ago

            You missed to point. Compare instances to communities.

            Instances are not isolated. It doesn’t matter much which instance you join because as long as your instance is federated with other instances you can still participate in the communities you want to participate in. If you don’t like your instances, you can join a different instance and as long as that other instance is federated the same way you can get get the exact same experience on a different instance. That means instances are decentralized.

            Communities are isolated. It matters which community you join because each post and comment is contained within that community. If you join a small community and there’s a bigger community elsewhere you won’t be able to participate in the bigger community. If you dislike a community and join a different community you can’t get the exact same experience because you can’t interact with the same posts. All of that means communities are centralized.

            The reason we have popular communities in the first place is because communities are centralized. Centralized communities also work against the decentralization as your example also pointed out, because instances can leverage their communities.

            This is also what I alluded to my steering wheels analogy. We don’t have tools to decentralize communities. We have a steering wheel for each community instead of one wheel for all communities that are essentially the same.

  • AnyOldName3@lemmy.worldEnglish
    0·
    18 days ago

    OpenMW’s official Lemmy community has been on lemmy.ml since 2021, way before lemmy.world existed (and most other instances, too), and way before there was any inter-instance drama. It’s becoming increasingly likely that it’s not going to be a suitable long-term home, but we’d be much happier if we could migrate the existing community rather than start from scratch with a new one. Is there any way to do that yet?

    • barsoap@lemm.eeOPEnglish
      0·
      18 days ago

      but we’d be much happier if we could migrate the existing community rather than start from scratch with a new one. Is there any way to do that yet?

      Migrating content over should be doable by a sufficiently tech-savvy admin, subscribers, I don’t think so.

        • ricdeh@lemmy.worldEnglish
          0·
          18 days ago

          Principally it is possible if you can iterate over all the posts and comments and inject them into the database of their new home.

          • Aniki 🌱🌿@lemm.eeEnglish
            0·
            18 days ago

            That wont work at all. Each subscriber needs to get the update which is not a feature of Lemmy at the moment. Simply injecting posts will only copy over content.

    • Jelloeater@lemmy.worldEnglish
      0·
      18 days ago

      We love to be the home of smaller communities, but for sure, any larger ones should look into running on their own setup. If you need help, drop us a line!

    • grue@lemmy.worldEnglish
      0·
      18 days ago

      IMO organizations should self-host their official communities. If you’re going to move, it ought to be to something like !openmw@lemmy.openmw.org.

      In addition to the obvious benefits of having admin control/being able to avoid moderation drama imposed by others, it also means you could have more than one community: maybe !openmw for general discussion, plus !modding, !development, etc.

  • Mastengwe@lemm.eeEnglish
    0·
    18 days ago

    Love seeing this happen. That shithole needs to be defederated. The mod logs are FULL of butthurt mods banning people over and o Ver again for violating the Don’t Post Shit We Don’t Like rule, or… “Rule 1” to everyone else.

  • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    0·
    17 days ago
    1. JOIN US! Comicbooks is slow, I’d like it to grow so I can discuss less popular creator owned comics, at the moment it’s mostly some news posts, my list posts, some super hero discussion, and some dude who thinks internet comic strips are “comic books” (but nobody has corrected them because they seem nice enough lol).
      • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        0·
        17 days ago

        Lol technically correct, the best kind of correct!

        Naw for real though I just think personally that stuff belongs in comicstrips or one of the more apt communities for it, and comicbooks is specifically for Comic Books proper (not just Marvel/DC but also Image, IDW, DSTLRY, Massive, etc, the more creator owned and independent side.) I think this because quite frankly “Comic Books proper” doesn’t really fit in those communities dedicated to strips, and I’d like a space for it specifically when I’m looking for that stuff specifically. My opinions on the matter are far from “the rules” though, it is certainly allowed to post them.

        This is also not to say I don’t like strips, I do very much and am in most of those communities as well! It really just boils down to organization for me lol, may be slightly OCD.

    • Blaze@reddthat.comEnglish
      0·
      17 days ago

      some dude who thinks internet comic strips are “comic books

      Is that me? Ha ha

      • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        0·
        17 days ago

        Naw lol the one you posted is at least a nightwing/starfire thing, it’s related. But you’re cool too!

        I meant whoever posted the one about the comet passing earth a little while back haha.

  • mightyfoolish@lemmy.worldEnglish
    0·
    16 days ago

    This may sound cheesy but this list is the healthy way to solve the issue people had with Lemmy.ml moderation. Thank you for compiling it, I didn’t reliaze there were instances for programming and anime. Glad to see a solution where we didn’t have to go through the adults (admins and mods in this case).

    Also, it’s healthy for the fediverse to see communities spread on to many instances but it does make Lemmy harder for your average redditor to understand (but long term goal of a healthy fediverse is more important).

    Also !greentext@sh.itjust.works is a bit more active than !4chan@lemmy.world