Currently, almost anyone in the Fediverse can see Lemmys votes. Lemmy admins can see votes, as well as mods. Only regular Lemmy users can’t. Should the Lemmy devs create a way to make the votes anonymous?
There is a discussion going on right now considering “making the Lemmy votes public” but I think that premisse is just wrong. The votes are public already, they’re just hidden from Lemmy users. Anyone from a kbin/mbin/fedia instance can check out the votes if they are so inclined.
The users right now may fall into a false sense of privacy when voting because the votes are hidden from Lemmy users. If you want to vote something and not show up on the vote list, please create another account to support that type of content and don’t tell anyone.
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No, there is no real need. An account is already pseudo-anonymous. Full anonymity adds no real value beyond making it easier to manipulate vote tallies with bot accounts undetected.
edit: As a side note, this is one of the more transparent social media communities. It’s not terribly privacy-oriented in general. The enhanced transparency is part of its appeal.
Any instances that actually show public downvotes? I’ve seen people talk about them but haven’t seen them yet
One benefit to vote transparency for admins is mod monitoring options.
Reddit is infested with vote manipulation via bots. At least on the Fediverse it seems like both admins and mods might have more options.
Sill waiting for someone to show me how to see what someone up votes and down votes on Lemmy through a pre-existing Mbin or Mastodon instance. That’s really been the only convincing argument to make them public that I’ve heard. (That convinces me, I mean.) But nobody has shown it is possible through fedia.io for example. I tried but couldn’t see it, but it’s possible I was looking in the wrong place.
Here is a video of me doing it on my phone with fedia.io: https://files.catbox.moe/nb5rx1.mp4 For some reason it wouldn’t show me reduces (downvotes), though.
Ahhhh, okay. I was expecting it to be under a user but it is attached to the post. That makes targeted harassment marginally more difficult but regardless, I definitely can see that it’s trivial to see the upvotes (favorites) and downvotes (reduces).
Whether or not this is “good” or “bad” I’m still undecided on, but you’ve officially convinced me that it is trivial to see exactly who voted (and how) on a post (or comment). You do not need to “set up an instance” like many people say.
Fair enough. I do think you can view it under a users profile in some Mastodon clients- but only upvotes, not downvotes.
Its best if the rules are the same for anyone, but public votes is something power hungry mods will eventually abuse. If you dare upvote the wrong post you will get banned.
It sounds like everyone but mods should be able to see voters. But of course they will use straw accounts. What if only votes on your own post/comment were revealed to you? Like some pointed out, they are already not anonymous to anyone who wants to try hard enough to get the data because of federation. So the question is who do we want to be able to see that data easily? It’s a GUI modification in any case. Who are we making the gui modification for?
All it will take is for folks to look and see you voted in something and they won’t see the context or will misunderstand your intentions and they’ll ban you. This shit happened back on Reddit too and it sucked. They’d blanket ban people who interacted in a community without looking at what you actually did.
Bitte mt
deleted by creator
Yeah. If you’re on a public forum accessible to anyone, which the whole fediverse is, then you should never assume privacy.
Honestly transparency in this regard would be better - they’re already visible to much of the community, so they might as well be visible to everyone.
One situation I’ve repeatedly faced that could be solved by fully public voting is having those debates when someone puts a single downvote on my opponent’s comments.
Silly, yes, but it may look like I am downvoting a person to aggravate. I am not, it’s not me! :D
I solve that by sometimes saying “upvoted” so it is clear that I am not downvoting them even if we disagree
Upvoted!
How about pseudonymous as a compromise? Votes could be publicly federated but tied to some uuid instead of the username. That way you still have the same anti spam ability (can see that a user upvoted these things from this instance at this time) but can’t tie it directly to comments or actual user accounts without some extra osint.
It might be theoretically possible to correlate the uuids with an account’s activity and dox the user in some cases, especially with some instances having a single user, but it would be very difficult or impossible to do on larger instances and would add an extra layer. Single user instances would be kind of impossible to make totally private anyway because they can be identified by instance.
Votes could be publicly federated but tied to some uuid instead of the username. That way you still have the same anti spam ability (can see that a user upvoted these things from this instance at this time) but can’t tie it directly to comments or actual user accounts without some extra osint.
The issue with that is with malicious instances that could engage with vote manipulation by just generating new IDs and voting for whatever they want. If you can’t look back at the profile and determine whether it’s a real, non-spam account, it’s a pretty big issue unfortunately.
You also have an issue where someone could potentially vote with “your” ID without any way to detect that it’s not actually “you” who sent the vote.
they could do similar to another platform had done, which is tie voting to a shadow account that only the instance admin team can link to a user, this allows for moderation while providing the ability for obscurity.
I still disagree it should be public in the first place, but I know it’s a hard requirement for federation so it’s unlikely to become more concealed
With the current way that ActivityPub works, this isn’t really possible. Every vote needs to be signed by some real user; if that changed such that anonymous votes were accepted then there’s nothing to stop any random person from adding 5 or 5,000 anonymous votes.
What it the instance signs the activity? Then it propagates to others instances after local validation. That way only local admins would have access to voting data. Malicious instances could still be defederated/blocked/have votes disregarded.
- You are still trusting the instance admin. What if the admin pushes a code patch that transforms every like into a dislike based on a keyword?
- Your history will never be fully portable.
- It creates some weird dynamic: are we going to start dividing ourselves into “instances that obfuscate voting” and “instances that prefer transparency”?
- What is the criteria for “malicious”?
- Currently, any admin can modify any local user activity, can’t they?
- Not really, your local instance may still hold the vote data for validation. And therefore could be ported and resigned.
- Don’t see the problem.
- Today, each instance decides whomever they want federation with. The ones who decide the criteria should be the same ones who decide whom the instance federates with.
- Admins could modify the activity, but users can verify from outside (if they so which). If the user data gets obfuscated, it becomes a complete black box.
- But then you have two different events.
- Here is one problem: the userbase on the Fediverse is already ridiculously small. If we keep dividing ourselves over very little preference, we will end up with nothing but a thousand little ghetto fiefdoms, used by people who will never ever learn how to tolerate a different point of view.
- No. What will happen is that the silent majority will want to keep federation with everyone, but the intolerant minority will keep pushing instance admins to defederate from anyone who does not want to obfuscate votes. Eventually, LW will make a decision one way or another and everyone else will just have to decide if they want to stick with their principles or follow the leader so that they are not isolated.
The problem with that is, can you really trust most instances out there? If you’re a sketchy admin, it’s not that hard to convince a handful of people to use your instance and have a couple dozen anonymous votes at your disposal to influence certain topics. There’s no way to detect it, not even the other users.
That would then mean that small instances would have to prove themselves before being accepted in the wider network of instances and just end up centralizing the fediverse.
With the votes being public, while you can create as many accounts as you want, you still have to publicly use a bunch of bot accounts which makes it more easily detectable. And of course, there’s no way your instance can get away with impersonating you, because you could see it sneaking votes or comments.
I wish it could be more private, but I can’t think of a way you can prevent vote manipulation without revealing who actually voted for what or rely on trust. Another way to look at it would be, what if Lemmy didn’t use instances but instead some sort of decentralized system where each user is its own entity. How would we obfuscate the votes then? Anyone can publish a message to the network, so you need to tie it to some identity, and you circle right back to the problem.
For privacy, there’s always alt accounts and recycling accounts often. Or treat the votes as if you were commenting “+1” or “-1”.
Unless someone comes up with some crypto scheme to somehow anonymously prove that a user has voted, and has voted only once, and the user has credible history being a real person.
Personally, it’s a tradeoff I chose as the price of entry for being able to participate in this while being fully independent of some benevolent person/organization/company/private equity firm. Nobody can take away my API or my apps or shove me ads. I can post entire 4K HDR clips if I want. I can have an offline copy of it if I want to read on a plane trip. I can index Lemmy, I can search Lemmy.
We already depend on trusting instances for a lot of what’s going on here, I don’t see why we shouldn’t be able to defederate untrusted ones.
That would then mean that small instances would have to prove themselves before being accepted in the wider network of instances and just end up centralizing the fediverse.
Most of us want the Fediverse to eternally decentralise. Imho, this would be the optimal scenario. Whitelists would be a major obstacle to the décentralisation effort.
I bet you could do it with ring signatures
a message signed with a ring signature is endorsed by someone in a particular set of people. One of the security properties of a ring signature is that it should be computationally infeasible to determine which of the set’s members’ keys was used to produce the signature
To me the anonymity of voting is the problem, so the solution is to make them public for all, not to find ways of making them more private.
The point of privacy is pretty shaky in this context, tbh. Anybody using the fediverse is ensured pseudonymity already, the privacy issue should be whether your account(s) can be linked to your real life identity against your will.
In that regard I can only see positives to making voting public. Foremost it could create some accountability to the system, and maybe minimise the lazier drive-by, doom scroll votes?
It’s the lazy drive-by and rage votes specifically that I would love to see eliminated. If you’re too much a coward to defend a position, maybe you shouldn’t express it.
And now I definitely want to see whoever downvoted your post outed as cowards 👍👍
I know, right? It’s like irony is a lost art.
I completely agree with the idea of more accountability. We are real people in acting public right here, we should be constantly aware that our actions have consequences. If you don’t want your pseudonym associated with a vote, don’t do it. It’s kinda like the opposite of 4chan, where instand of anonymous controversial content on top, here we have human-curated content being pushed up.
Couldn’t agree more, and if we passed around imaginary gold on Lemmy, I’d give you a dubloon for this.
I’m so, so glad to see I am not the only one that thinks this way.
The problem with every system is it will eventually be broken down by someone smarter and used to manipulate the user-base that grew to trust its safety to market something. Be it ideas or products, the only true safety net we have is a choice in the decision. The second a choice is forced, is the second groups split away. Each user at least deserves the safety of choice if we expect them to trust in any larger system. Decisions being made by a smaller group of individuals for the larger whole, doesn’t exactly have the best history if we look at the world around us. Don’t get me wrong… Trust would be great, but we have to trust that going from one extreme to another will inevitably create a another new problem.
Wait a minute, so any admin can see which posts do I upvote/downvote?
I’m an instance owner and mod. I’ll describe what we see.
Like anyone else, I can check a post or comment and see the upvote and downvote counts. If I click on a specific menu item by a post or comment I can also see who voted which way.
I check it often and to date have only banned two users, out of thousands, who were consistently downvoting posts. These bot accounts were literally voting within seconds of the post going federated.
It’s a useful feature on my end and I think others should be able to see it.
Thamk you for the insight, instance administrator views are valuable and unique.
At the risk of sounding like I’m presenting a bad faith argument, why ban them? I don’t like the whole “free market” analogy but surely it’s one of the liberating features of federated servers, being able to to largely express your votes or content as you see fit within the legal framework of the host nation. Wouldn’t the odd one or two mass downvoters/upvoters/theyvoters ultimately be a statistical abberation or is the fediverse still small enough for this sort of shit to carry weight?
Open criticism of my view welcome, as always!
Lemmy downvotes really have no consequences though, besides user ego.
why ban them?
They were describing someone who downvoted everything seconds within the post arriving.
If votes are anonymous and federated, it’s very easy for me to add or subtract 900 votes from whatever I want.
You should consider anything you do on social media to be public. Even if Facebook tries to claim that it’s not.
Oh I like a pessimistic view - partly because it makes a discussion spicier, but also because it’s important for a user to understand the power that an instance owner wields!
They’re purposely disruptive to the community, they are not part of the community.
That’s a strong viewpoint and I appreciate where you’re coming from, but how many votedicks does it take to derail a post? I appreciate the fediverse is reasonably small in comparison to othe headline social media sites, but does banning one or two bots or people do enough to save posts from getting bombed?
If it’s early? One.
with *nz content on my instance, very few
Admin of a small instance, I have banned 2 accounts for another instance that were downvoting almost all content in a threads without any other interaction. They were being disruptive to the flow at the time, much like @ericjmorey@discuss.online describes.
Oh man, this is awesome - it’s wonderful hearing from the practitioners of the art!
I’m just trying to figure out what driver establishing the tipping point for breaking or the ban hammer - is there any empirical data to drive these decisions, or is the fediverse user base small enough that you act on “feel” or “professional instinct”?
Managing emerging technologies fascinates me so any input - including the germs you’ve already volunteered - is very much appreciated 👍
For me and my (very - it may be down to just me logging in, but a couple of the communities have a few people that read/vote) small instance it comes down to feel (“Don’t be a dick”). Dave, the admin of lemmy.nz (about 80 users per week) has the same in their side board as their “Rule”. Dave and I set up our *nz instances in the same week and we chat often. He might not be quire as quick with the ban hammer as I might be though.
When you are this small even a small outside problem can have huge effects on your instance
I agree! I believe seeing who upvoted or downvoted a post aids in identifying rabid downvoters and bots. However, I personally use mobile Lemmy apps and am unable to access that data.
Yep. On kbin I think any user can too.
On mbin users can only see who upvoted a post. An admin can of course still go into the db and look there, but for users and mods there is no way to see who downvoted a post
There is a reductions tab on mbin, which shows downvotes
There was and is not anymore
Then maybe it is still around on some instances?
Either way, it is only a matter of time for another fediverse software to show downvotes, or someone to spin up a vote info page which gets its information via undisclosed legitimate fediverse instances so you cannot defederate them.I was actually the one removing it. I implemented the support for incoming downvotes and because I and others had concerns to keep showing remote users downvotes publicly we / I removed it.
That’s a pretty reasonable compromise, and probably explains my confusion.
Why didn’t you do the same for remote upvotes?
Yes, by looking in the DB or the data that’s federated as it comes through
There’s now a UI feature that allows admins to see votes without needing to manually query the database
Furthermore, anyone can spin up a Lemmy server if they want to see people’s votes. It’s not very hard or load the same post in kbin/mbin.
For what it’s worth, admins/employees on Reddit (or any other website) can also see upvote records.
this is different, oc is talking about “any admin”. Anyone can make a lemmy server and become a server admin from which they might be able to see the voters
yes, and any instance owner on any federated instance. Oh, and anyone on Kbin.
What you upvote/downvote, when you upvote/downvote. With some database queries, they can also read DMs that are on their server (i.e. if you message someone on my server).
You can see who upvoted a post by putting the URL to the post or comment into any connected mbin server and clicking “favorites”. Downvotes are restricted by default (but admins can see those of course).
The only information admins can see is the information on their server. For Lemmy, that means a server would need to be subscribed to all communities you’re active in for that information to be available. If you want I can DM what upvotes of yours my server knows about.
Yep and they ban people as they see fit, across different communities, based on votes anywhere
Make the author of the comment/post see who voted for them.
레미에 대한 공개 투표는 커뮤니티 내에서 투명성과 책임성을 강화하여 사용자가 특정 콘텐츠를 지지하거나 반대하는 사람을 확인할 수 있게 해줍니다. 그러나 이는 또래의 압력이나 원치 않는 감시로 이어질 수도 있습니다. 온라인 상호작용에서 프라이버시와 자유를 원하는 사용자에게는 익명성이 더 바람직할 수 있습니다. 온라인 개인정보 보호 도구에 대해 자세히 알아보려면 챗GPT 를 방문하세요.
레미에 대한 공개 투표는 커뮤니티 내에서 투명성과 책임성을 강화하여 사용자가 특정 콘텐츠를 지지하거나 반대하는 사람을 확인할 수 있게 해줍니다. 그러나 이는 또래의 압력이나 원치 않는 감시로 이어질 수도 있습니다. 온라인 상호작용에서 프라이버시와 자유를 원하는 사용자에게는 익명성이 더 바람직할 수 있습니다. 온라인 개인정보 보호 도구에 대해 자세히 알아보려면 챗GPT 를 방문하세요.
lemie daehan gong-gae tupyoneun keomyuniti naeeseo tumyeongseong-gwa chaeg-imseong-eul ganghwahayeo sayongjaga teugjeong kontencheuleul jijihageona bandaehaneun salam-eul hwag-inhal su issge haejubnida. geuleona ineun ttolaeui ablyeog-ina wonchi anhneun gamsilo ieojil sudo issseubnida. onlain sanghojag-yong-eseo peulaibeosiwa jayuleul wonhaneun sayongja-egeneun igmyeongseong-i deo balamjighal su issseubnida. onlain gaeinjeongbo boho dogue daehae jasehi al-abolyeomyeon chaesGPT leul bangmunhaseyo.
Public voting for Remi increases transparency and accountability within the community, allowing users to see who supports or opposes certain content. However, it can also lead to peer pressure or unwanted surveillance. For users who want privacy and freedom in their online interactions, anonymity may be preferable. Visit ChatGPT to learn more about online privacy tools.
I’m sorry, what?
Spambot
Keep the Fediverse bot- and troll-free.
The whole idea of being able to behave like a shithead without accountability needs to go.
As with all things you must behave like a shithead in moderation.
