Article: https://proton.me/blog/deepseek

Calls it “Deepsneak”, failing to make it clear that the reason people love Deepseek is that you can download and it run it securely on any of your own private devices or servers - unlike most of the competing SOTA AIs.

I can’t speak for Proton, but the last couple weeks are showing some very clear biases coming out.

  • nutsack@lemmy.world
    0·
    23 hours ago

    he’s probably right. the company wants to be disruptive, and it’s normal for any company to steal data. you can self host the current model, but that doesn’t mean this will always be the case. certainly they will want to make a profit at some point. it’s day 1 silicon valley shit

  • harsh3466@lemmy.ml
    0·
    2 days ago

    I want to preface this question by saying that I’m not trolling and I’m not defending Proton. I’m genuinely confused at the reaction to this article.

    I’m also upset with Proton’s recent comments, specifically the December tweet and subsequent responses, and I’m evaluating my use of Proton.

    Near as I can tell, this article (which I did read) lays out the facts about Deepseek as an LLM originating in China and the implications of that.

    Why is this article a reason to pile on proton?

    • thirteene@lemmy.world
      0·
      1 day ago

      Proton had a reputation for being the good guy. In the span of a month, we saw them bend the knee, flip flop and throw shade at competition; all while pretending to be the hero. We essentially have to trust them with our data and they are showing signs that they are willing to act against that trust with worrisome agendas and biases. It’s not a good look, and since this marketing to users key issues, it’s going to cause some responses.

    • Jhex@lemmy.world
      0·
      1 day ago

      Calls it “Deepsneak”, failing to make it clear that the reason people love Deepseek is that you can download and it run it securely on any of your own private devices or servers - unlike most of the competing SOTA AIs.I can’t speak for Proton, but the last couple weeks are showing some very clear biases coming out.

      • cyberwolfie@lemmy.ml
        0·
        1 day ago

        The reason a very small subset of users love it*

        All the downloads making it the top app in the app stores are from people using their centralized service. The people behind these downloads have no clue that you can run it locally or can even start to understand what that would even mean. It is this usage the article is addressing.

        Like the thread starter, I am also confused to why this in particular draws so much hate.

  • ToxicWaste@lemm.ee
    0·
    2 days ago

    this is obviously talking about their web app, which most people will be using. In this special instance, it was clearly not the LLM itself censoring the Tiananmen Square, but a layer on top.

    i have not bothered downloading and asking deepseek about Tiananmen Square. so i cannot know what the model would have generated. however, it is possible that certain biasses are trained into any model.

    i am pretty sure, this blog is aimed at the average user. while i wouldn’t trust any LLM company with my data, i certainly wouldn’t want the chinese government to have them. anyone that knows how to use (ollama)[https://github.com/ollama/ollama] should know these telemetry data don’t apply to running locally. but for sure, pointing it out in the blog would help.

    • chebra@mstdn.io
      0·
      1 day ago

      @ToxicWaste @JOMusic the censorship is trained into the ollama models too. But of course the self-hosted model cannot send anything to China, so at least the whole tracking issue is avoided.

  • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
    0·
    2 days ago

    1978 US Automotive Companies: If we make a product that locks our customers in, they’ll be our customers forever!

    1978 Japanese Automotive Companies: The US gave us their required parameters. If we make a product that works then customers will keep buying our stuff.

    2025 US Tech Companies: If we make our products contingent on proprietary software and hardware, we’ll lock them in.

    2025 Chinese Tech Companies: The US gave us their required parameters. If we make a product that works and they can utilize freely, they’ll keep buying our stuff.

    Not our first rodeo.

  • abobla@lemm.ee
    0·
    2 days ago

    Jesus fuckin Christ, just marry Trump at this point, Mister proton CEO.

  • yourFanatic@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
    0·
    2 days ago

    I cancelled my Proton renewal for January and am very happy with Mullvad VPN.

    Mozilla VPN runs Mullvad under the hood as well.

  • Victor@lemmy.world
    0·
    2 days ago

    Goddammit I had such high hopes for Proton. Was planning on that being my post-Google main. Now what. 💀

    • aleq@lemmy.world
      0·
      1 day ago

      I’ve been happy with Fastmail for 10 years, though they’re Australian and not European. Might look into a European alternative at some point but so far I’ve had no reason to switch.

      • LiveLM@lemmy.zipEnglish
        0·
        1 day ago

        At this point I’m this 🤏 close to hosting my own email abandoning it all and living in a cabin in yhe woods

        • AHemlocksLie@lemmy.zip
          0·
          1 day ago

          Man, I wish self hosted email was a reasonable thing to do. But it’s a pain to set up the server and the domain stuff, and once you do, if anyone ever spammed off that IP, you’re probably screwed anyway because good luck getting off the blacklists.

      • Victor@lemmy.world
        0·
        2 days ago

        Anything European-based to recommend? I’d like something as far-removed from America as possible, respecting GDPR, privacy, etc., but with a good-sized free-tier storage. I don’t think I need more than a couple GB for email. Calendar included would be a big plus as well. 😅 Probably asking for a lot here…

          • Victor@lemmy.world
            0·
            1 day ago

            Thanks! I saw Tuta from the previous comment and thought 1 GB is a bit on the small side, kind of like Proton. But not too expensive to go up a tier either. 👍

        • dinozaur@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          0·
          2 days ago

          I use Infomaniak Mail or ikmail for short. They give you 20GB free, have a whole suite (calendar and others), and are Swiss based. It can also link to other mail clients under the free tier. Only hurdle is using a VPN or proxy for initial sign up, but that can be turned off for daily usage.

  • lemmus@szmer.info
    0·
    2 days ago

    Guys I know OpenAI is not clear, its as bad as deepseek and even worse, BUT you have to realize, that most people don’t give a fuck about running deepseek locally, they just download deepsek app and use it, which is more privacy intrusive even than ClosedAI. Giving information to China, when you live on the west is like giving russians information, when you live in Ukraine. We are on constant war with China, because we are democratic, they are communism, and we cannot just give them our data for free, therefore I have to admit PROTON IS RIGHT about deepseek being “deepsneak”

    • lemmus@szmer.info
      0·
      1 day ago

      “I don’t care if rus or china”… Guys you really don’t think. If you lived in Ukraine, would you care about giving russians address where you live? Then why you don’t care giving them your data, when you live on the west? Because we are not physically fighting rus/china doesn’t mean we are not on the war with them. I said it is great Deepseek is possible to host locally, but no one cares, everyone use their app anyway, and this is the problem, as it is even worse than using ClosedAI.

      • QuietCupcake [any, they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
        0·
        6 hours ago

        I want Russia to win (and it will) and I want China to win (and it will). My use of an LLM isn’t going to make one lick of difference one way or the other, but if it did, I would help it in any and every conceivable way. xi-lib-tears

        You are a fucking nerd for thinking you have more “privacy” to lose to China than to the profiteering, rent-seeking silicon valley bastards who are already and right now exploiting the fuck outta you.

        • lemmus@szmer.info
          0·
          5 hours ago

          I’d better be a “fucking nerd” that invented all that shit that you use now, than a fucking idiot who doesn’t ever use brain and probably lives in a fucking america. But I like how so many kids think communism is good, when they live in a democratic freedom country. Read some books, use this technology for something else instead bullshit, as you don’t know the world yet.

    • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
      0·
      2 days ago

      we are democratic, they are communism, and we cannot just give them our data for free,

      You got a lot to learn but this statement gave me serious loolz

    • cmhe@lemmy.world
      0·
      2 days ago

      China is not communist, they are market-captialistic, one-party highly authoritarian state. “socialism” and “cmmunism” is just used to make them sound better and more legitimate than they are.

    • SatanClaus@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      0·
      2 days ago

      Propaganda got ya good bud. Sure. It’s important but Jesus. Lol. ChatGPT does the same shit but doesn’t let me run it locally. Fuck ChatGPT

    • Naia@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
      0·
      2 days ago

      As a queer person I don’t really care at this point if China or Russia is tracking me. They aren’t the ones who are currently stripping me and others of rights and so many other things.

      I don’t trust any governments on this front, but the government I live under is way more of a concern.

      • Nalivai@lemmy.world
        0·
        2 days ago

        Russia specifically is a big part of why trump is in power. They weren’t the sole contributors, but they definitely helped a lot. And they achieved it by buying, stealing, and collecting data on people and doing targeting misinformation campaign.

        • wholookshere@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          0·
          2 days ago

          That’s… Not actually a reasonse to what was said?

          Sure, that’s all fine and dandy. But it doesn’t change the point that was being made.

          The election happened. Here and now, Russia and China tracking me is no different than the US. They’re all authoritarian governments hell bent on stripping rights away.

          Now I’m not the same person you replied to. I’m in Canada, so I’m weary of all of them. But if I was in the states, I’d RATHER give my data to an advisory that won’t do much with it. As apposed to the current government hellbent on making life for me and my trans siblings as hard and difficult as possible.

    • /home/pineapplelover@lemm.ee
      0·
      2 days ago

      I got a proton vpn subscription a while ago and they upgraded me to unlimited for the same price. So I think I’m paying like $6.25/month for an unlimited plan. I feel like it’s too good to leave. If I do tuta’s plan that’s $3, then another $4 for simplelogin, and $5 for mullvad. So that’s $12 a month if I leave my plan.

      • AlecSadler@sh.itjust.works
        0·
        2 days ago

        I get it, and please, you do you. There’s no issue.

        I’d just add that I can save money using Amazon, but I try to avoid it when I can. I’ll pay a little extra when I can, for the greater good.

    • Victor@lemmy.world
      0·
      2 days ago

      You have two email addresses in both Tuta and Mailbox? Any particular reason for that, that you could share with us? 🙏

      • AlecSadler@sh.itjust.works
        0·
        2 days ago

        I have two domains, one in each of Tuta and Mailbox. It was originally so I could try both out, but now I figure it doesn’t hurt to keep 'em separated. I’m still new to non-proton so I am sort of still feeling things out.

        Nothing really too interesting or tricky about it, just bred out of curiosity.

        • Victor@lemmy.world
          0·
          2 days ago

          Ah I see. So now to the possibly tough question, if you had to choose only one, or recommend only one of them to someone who wants to make a minimal amount of new email addresses, which one would you recommend over the other? 😅 Or maybe a third option?

          • AlecSadler@sh.itjust.works
            0·
            2 days ago

            I think I’d need some more time to really answer, but on the outset, I find Mailbox.org’s interface more intuitive with more settings and generally feels cleaner and more streamlined. Creating aliases and domain aliases in mailbox seems more proton-like in its simplicity.

            Tuta I think is more private and secure, but bits of their interface and app need polish. One reason I think Tuta is more secure despite them both touting security and privacy is that Mailbox search works immediately, whereas Tuta requires you to agree to a permission and states it stores everything locally to you so it may take up space. I think Tuta isn’t doing any server-side indexing of any kind? Unsure.

            edit: Mailbox doesn’t have a native app, and Tuta has a native app but I think it’s largely a webview. Notifications work OK but you’ll click on a notification and then have to wait for the app to actually connect and resync before you can view it.

  • Majestic@lemmy.ml
    0·
    2 days ago

    People got flack for saying Proton is the CIA, Proton is NSA, Proton is a joint five-eyes country intelligence operation despite the convenient timing of their formation and lots of other things.

    Maybe they’re not, maybe their CEO is just acting this way.

    But consider for a moment if they were. IF they were then all of this would make more sense. The CIA/NSA/etc have a vested interest in discrediting and attacking Chinese technology they have no ability to spy or gather data through. The CIA/NSA could also for example see a point to throwing in publicly with Trump as part of a larger agreed upon push with the tech companies towards reactionary politics, towards what many call fascism or fascism-ish.

    My mind is not made up. It’s kind of unknowable. I think they’re suspicious enough to be wary of trusting them but there’s no smoking gun, yet there wasn’t a smoking gun that CryptoAG was a CIA cut-out until some unauthorized leaks nearly a half century after they gained control and use of it. We know they have an interest in subverting encryption, in going fishing among “interesting” targets who might seek to use privacy-conscious services and among dissidents outside the west they may wish to vet and recruit.

    True privacy advocates should not be throwing in with the agenda of any regime or bloc, especially those who so trample human and privacy rights as that of the US and co. They should be roundly suspicious of all power.

  • pineapple@lemmy.mlEnglish
    0·
    3 days ago

    OpenAI, Google, and Meta, for example, can push back against most excessive government demands.

    Sure they “can” but do they?

    • geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml
      0·
      2 days ago

      They cannot. When big daddy FBI knocks on the door and you get that forced NDA you, will build in backdoors and comply with anything the US government tells you.

      Even then the US might want to you to shut down because they want to control your company.

      TikTok.

    • davel@lemmy.mlEnglish
      0·
      2 days ago

      “Pushing back against the government” doesn’t even make sense. These people are oligarchs. They largely are the government. Who attended Trump’s inauguration? Who hosted Trump’s inauguration party? These US tech oligarchs.

    • HiddenLayer555@lemmy.mlEnglish
      0·
      2 days ago

      Why do that when you can just score a deal with the government to give them whatever information they want for sweet perks like foreign competitors getting banned?

  • Rogue@feddit.uk
    0·
    3 days ago

    How apt, just yesterday I put together an evidenced summary of the CEOs recent absurd comments. Why are Proton so keen to throw away so much good will people had invested in them?!

    This is what the CEO posting as u/Proton_Team stated in a response on r/ProtonMail:

    Here is our official response, also available on the Mastodon post in the screenshot:

    Corporate capture of Dems is real. In 2022, we campaigned extensively in the US for anti-trust legislation.

    Two bills were ready, with bipartisan support. Chuck Schumer (who coincidently has two daughters working as big tech lobbyists) refused to bring the bills for a vote.

    At a 2024 event covering antitrust remedies, out of all the invited senators, just a single one showed up - JD Vance.

    By working on the front lines of many policy issues, we have seen the shift between Dems and Republicans over the past decade first hand.

    Dems had a choice between the progressive wing (Bernie Sanders, etc), versus corporate Dems, but in the end money won and constituents lost.

    Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.

    Source: https://archive.ph/quYyb

    To call out the important bits:

    1. He refers to it as the “official response”
    2. Indicates that JD Vance is on their side just because he attended an event that other invited senators didn’t
    3. Rattles on about “corporate Dems” with incredible bias
    4. States “Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses” which is immediately refuted by every response

    That was posted in ther/ProtonMail sub where the majority of the event took place: https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i1zjgn/so_that_happened/m7ahrlm/

    However be aware that the CEO posting as u/Proton_Team kept editing his comments so I wouldn’t trust the current state of it. Plus the proton team/subreddit mods deleted a ton of discussion they didn’t like. Therefore this archive link captured the day after might show more but not all: https://web.archive.org/web/20250116060727/https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i1zjgn/so_that_happened/m7ahrlm/

    Some statements were made on Mastodon but these are subsequently deleted, but they’re capture by an archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20250115165213/https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503

    I learned about it from an r/privacy thread but true to their reputation the mods there also went on a deletion spree and removed the entire post: https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1i210jg/protonmail_supporting_the_party_that_killed/

    This archive link might show more but I’ve not checked: https://web.archive.org/web/20250115193443/https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1i210jg/protonmail_supporting_the_party_that_killed/

    There’s also this lemmy discussion from the day after but by that point the Proton team had fully kicked in their censorship so I don’t know how much people were aware of (apologies I don’t know how to make a generic lemmy link) https://feddit.uk/post/22741653

    • ERROR: Earth.exe has crashed@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      0·
      2 days ago

      Indicates that JD Vance is on their side just because he attended an event that other invited senators didn’t

      🤣

      Show up at an event = my best friend and definitely not a leopard ready to eat my face ???

      🤔

      (What a dumbass)

    • doubtingtammy@lemmy.ml
      0·
      2 days ago

      Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.

      What a fucking dumbass. Yes, dems suck. But at least Lina Khan was head of the FTC and starting to change how antitrust laws are enforced. Did he delete this post after Trump was inaugurated with 3 of the richest tech billionaires?