I don’t think Ukraine is known for hiding military assets in things like hospitals.
You can keep trying to make them the same but they aren’t.
Neither is Hamas, nobody believes you anymore.
israel, on the other hand, did plant rifles behind MRI machines, and laptops with plugs that aren’t even used in Gaza.
You may be correct, but the loss of civilian life in Gaza is truly horrific.
they’re not correct; amnesty proved that nothing was hidden in that hospital and that both americans and isrealis were lying about it to their respective populace.
reminds me of weapons on mass destruction in iraq; they use congress, tv, radio, etc. to spread the lies and then nothing happens when it’s proven that they were lying to us.
Al Shifa was home to Hamas torture chambers for a decade at least. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
Its not just a hospital.
Al Shifa was home to Hamas torture chambers for a decade at least.
Your link gave one example a decade ago.
What makes you think they stopped? Hamas saying they did?
You linked something from a decade ago of something being claimed once, and claimed the link showed it’s been happening for a decade continuously.
I thought you were just confused so I didn’t ban you
If you knew what you were doing, then that was my mistake.
What makes you think they’re still doing it? IDF/Netanyahu saying it without any credible evidence?
Also, what kind of logic justifies attacking a hospital which definitely has victims of Israel’s own relentless attack, on the off chance that the hospital might have terrorists?
This is highly contested and no credible evidence has been produced for these claims. Israeli propagandists have been hard at work conjuring up lies wholesale and it’s shameful to repeat them without verification.
So this piece doesn’t source any evidence that it was used and ignores the literal fact that later investigations by Amnesty didn’t find credible evidence of use as a military base and the massive Israeli misinformation campaign on that front: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_military_use_of_al-Shifa_hospital#:~:text=During the Israel–Hamas war,Hamas and hospital administrators denied.
But yeah let’s justify Israel bombing away access to medical care to people forced into a small, war torn area because fuck Palestinians I guess.
Last I heard, Ukrainians weren’t holding up in those hospitals and using them as launch sites for their bombs…
Once you turn a hospital into a launch site, it’s no longer afforded the same protection. Might be wise to avoid doing that in the grand scheme of things.
Last I heard
Yeah you’re gonna need to back that claim up. Russian propaganda doesn’t count.
It’s wild that some people refuse to believe the pictures and videos of their own eyes. It’s undeniable but it weapons caches have been found in various hospitals including al-shifa. It’s undeniable that power feeding the underground tunnels was coming from a un facility.
You can deny reality all you want, but that doesn’t negate the facts.
The weapons found at al-shifa were small arms permissible under the Geneva convention, as often they are difficult to dispose of them at a moment’s notice when treating people who were injured while carrying a firearm. There were not extensive weapons caches at the hospital, nor is there any evidence that the arms that were there were being used for any Hamas operations.
Funny thing, the same things weren’t happening at the Al Shifa hospital.
Last I heard, Ukrainians weren’t holding up in those hospitals and using them as launch sites for their bombs…
RT says they were and the only people who might dispute it are terrorists (also according to Russia).
Besides, who am I supposed to believe? An IDF endorsed stenographer or my Hamas-affiliated eyes?
When you’re unwilling to believe your own eyes with the videos and pictures that have been shared that are clearly GPS and time stamped showing what was found and where then there’s nothing that’s going to convince you of reality over your embedded ignorance.
A lot of this boils down to who you trust for your news. Very easy to get a wide spectrum of videos as “proof” of an equivalent spectrum of beliefs and views.
Very easy to find war crimes in the middle of a war, and a little selective editing can go a long way towards defining “good guys” versus “bad guys”.
Yeah that’s fair. I try to make a point to get my news from both sides of the story I subscribed to Al Jazeera knowing they’re a clear propaganda machine. Regardless of where I’m getting the information from, I’m performing my own contextual analysis based on what I’m reading and seeing, and it’s really hard to deny the photographic and video evidence that’s published and widely available on this topic.
An overwhelming majority of news outlets, as well as humanitarian orgs like Amnesty International, and even the WHO, have come out and said they have seen no evidence that al-Shifa hospital was used for any military operations by Hamas. Even the IDF itself has barely tried to justify it. Israel bombed this hospital, killed civilians including newborns children, and so far have provided no reason to believe that it was even strategically beneficial for anything other than the continued mass deaths of innocent Palestinians.
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Just off reading headlines…is “entering” and “bombing” the same thing now?
Off headlines not.
Off reality Al Shifa is far more destroyed than the Ukrainian hospital.
Non-combatant body counts?
Far far higher as well. Including israel mass executing women and children.
What Israel did was far worse. They bombed the hospitals, laid siege, raided the hospitals, killed doctors, abducted doctors, tortured patients and staff, and dug mass graves.
Well, yeah, the IDF entered a cesspit pf hypocrites after obtaining fucking video footage that hostages were taken there. Russia bombed an urban center and hit a hospital.
The more appropriate comparison would be when a hummus misfire hit its own hospital building. Those were good times.
I’m sorry this is not the lie the IDF told to attack the hospital.
also interesting you still believe the Hamas missile lie from the IDF too. Never bothered to check for updates?
Yup,. the hypocrisy is so thick you can taste it, and it’s bitter with a strong hint of propaganda. the world is lead by assholes, on all sides.
the world is lead by assholes, on all sides.
This is an objectively true statement. Of course the world is lead by assholes.
We all know that power corrupts. Neuroscience has shown that getting power damages the brain’s capacity for empathy.
You just can’t lead a nation without becoming capable of great evil.
You just can’t lead a nation without becoming capable of great evil.
There isn’t a single US president in living memory without a litany of war crimes on their head, and probably going back further but I don’t particularly feel like going back to pre-WWII history because just why bother at this point?
https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/18/jimmy-carters-blood-drenched-legacy/
https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/11/jimmy-carters-blood-drenched-legacy-2/
Jimmy Carter was good at lip-service, not in reality. And honestly, I don’t even think it’s because he was a particularly nasty person - although I wouldn’t be surprised, he was a politician - it’s just the job forces you to become a war criminal. That’s what happens when you volunteer to supervise the war crimes factory.
EDIT: Actually, if you want to go back further, read one of the US military’s most decorated generals on what the military’s true purpose is, written in the interwar period: https://archive.org/details/WarIsARacket
So he has blood on his hands for not getting involved and for getting involved when both sides are likely to commit atrocities.
What a ridiculous bar to set.
What are you talking about? Please be specific. All I’m getting are vague “nuh-uh” answers. If you want to actually convince anyone that you have a point, you need to make it.
The first charge was his support for Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor. That’s not a “both sides” kind of issue. It’s an invasion and ensuing genocide. It’s not hard to judge what the right thing to do is there, but the US chose their global strategic goals over not genocide.
So like… what are you talking about? Please be specific.
The first example was Zaire, so if you don’t even know what you are linking I’m not going to go through it line by line.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/18/jimmy-carters-blood-drenched-legacy/
William Blum writes in Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II that Carter, who had been in office for only two months, was reluctant to involve his administration in a far-reaching intervention whose scope and length could not be easily anticipated.
However, Carter did provide “non-lethal” aid, while he did not protest as European countries offered military aid, and Morocco sent several thousand of its US-trained military forces to aid Mobutu.
“President Carter asserted on more than one occasion that the Zaire crisis was an African problem, best solved by Africans, yet he apparently saw no contradiction to this thesis in his own policy, nor did he offer any criticism of France or Belgium, or of China, which sent Mobutu a substantial amount of military equipment,” writes Blum. [1]
He didn’t criticize, what an absolute bloodthirsty monster!
I apologise for getting a minor detail wrong about the order of items in the list, I underestimated how critically important the order of items in that list was to you.
For instance it seems like you saw a chronological list and when the very first item - which is actually quite damning and from which you omitted the inciting incident of a CIA-backed assassination - wasn’t a full-on war crime, you decided it was all frivolous. I can see why it’s so easy to get someone like you to ignore war crimes when you’re that unwilling to even read about them. I called out East Timor by name and you still ignored it. I can’t hold your hand through the entire article. History is for people who are willing to do some reading.
Anyway, if you go just a few items down the list, you read this:
The genocidal slaughter reached its peak in 1977, On March 1, 95 members of the Australian Parliament sent a letter to Carter claiming the Indonesian troops were carrying out “atrocities” and asking the American President “to comment publicly on the situation in East Timor.” [3]
The response was crickets. Carter ramped up aid with funding and weapons to the murderous Indonesian regime, brazenly flaunting the human rights requirements imposed on American aid.
So that’s a war crime, even by the extremely lax rules imposed by the US on themselves and to which they will never hold themselves accountable.
If those are the worst examples you can come up with the man was basically a saint. What a bullshit hit piece. I am now dumber for having read it.
“Basically a saint” because he only sent aid to juntas and brutal genocidal regimes as opposed to what, exactly? Ordering the bombs dropped himself?
Also, if you think he was “basically a saint” even though his administration still backed genocide, then I think you’re kind of accepting my premise that “That’s what happens when you volunteer to supervise the war crimes factory.”
Yup. One of the very few who had the capability and likely didn’t use it.
Which of course led to him being single term because he wasn’t ruthless enough for a voting public that would rather have a former actor run the country into the ground while paying loveable grandpa to hide the evil.
But that wasn’t because he couldn’t lead the country, just that the public loves to fall for confident blowhards that tell them what they want to hear.
It’s almost like the circumstances are entirely different.
The difference being the IDF lying about why they destroyed a hospital and Russia lying about whether they were the ones who destroyed a hospital?
Al Shifa was used by Hamas, which made it a legal target. Ukrainian forces did not use the Kyiv children’s hospital for military purposes.
First, that article is paywalled and the subheading just says that US intelligence confirms a suspicion. US intelligence also said Iraq had WMDs so they aren’t that reliable.
The IDF entering the hospital is a different thing from the complete distruction of the hospital and all of the other hospitals they have destroyed in Gaza. Or all of the other infrastructure they have destroyed, always claiming it was used by Hamas.
The IDF has also lied multiple times about not killing the journalists they have killed. Or the aid convoys they attacked directly despite the IDF knowing they would be trainsporting aid.
They are lying liars and claiming anything is ‘used by Hamas’ should be immediately suspect.
Archival link for paywall. I trust US intelligence more than Hamas or you, random internet stranger.
The article is from January and is speculation. I can’t find an article that says they did find a command bunker and network of tunnels, just a couple about finding a few weapons and communication items plus one unexplored tunnel.
Do you know of a more recent article that confirms there was a command bunker and network of tunnels? It has been 7 months and they spent the time destroying the rest of the hospital so surely there is something confirming that it was a Hamas command bunker and not just stuff left by soldiers who went to a hospital for medical care.
The tunnels included bunkers, living areas, and computer and communications rooms, and established documents showed that Hamas masked its activities using the hospital. source.
IDF even released a video of the tunnel, which is blocked with rubble at a certain point.
Or would you rather believe Hamas?
First, connecting a tunnel to a building doesn’t make the building itself the same thing as whatever the tunnel connects to. By that logic, having a road to a hospital from a military baes makes the hospitsl a valid target.
I didn’t watch the full video, but it sure looked like a long service tunnel, which tons of buildings have. Nothing that justifying destroying an entire hospital complex after they cleared it. Is the IDF unable to close a single tunnel going into a hospital?
Not to mention the part in bold from the article (found out I can get to the text at least through reader mode).
The Israeli military, however, has struggled to prove that Hamas maintained a command-and-control center under the facility. Critics of the Israeli military say the evidence does not support its early claims, noting that it had distributed material before the raid showing five underground complexes and also had said the tunnel network could be reached from wards inside a hospital building. Israel has publicly revealed the existence of only one tunnel entrance on the grounds of the hospital, at the shack outside its main buildings.
Yup, justifying destroying the entire hospital complex because one tunnel connects to a shack outside the main buildings. Really proving your point there!
Sure are
Yeah they’re different. Israel killed many times more civilians in a fraction of the time.
The numbers are iffy, but yes, it’s about 4x as many civilians killed in Gaza as Ukraine:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Casualties
One hospitals had terror networks in and under them and one just so happens to have children inside that Russia wants to blow up. Same thing really
Which one can you provide any evidence? Or are you talking about israel claiming a water well was a tunnel network which has been proven to be a blatant lie?
In justifying its first raid, Israel said that underneath the hospital lay a complex network of tunnels, a central command center for Hamas. Evidence produced from that raid— caches of weapons, a tunnel leading to small, rusty quarters that appeared out of use, and no scores of militants found — fell far short of the claim . Hagari said Monday that the intelligence had been wrong and that Israel had tipped off Hamas militants at Shifa by announcing its attack plans.
“They left there because they knew we were coming,” he said. “And this time, we did something else.”
By doubling back to Shifa in mid-March, he said, forces surprised militants who had regrouped inside.
He said the military now believes militants operated mainly from the hospital wards themselves, not tunnels underneath.
Apparently they weren’t using those tunnels now.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-prison-doctor-accuse-torture-israel-hamas-war-rcna159710
Also, the hospital chief has some things to say as well.
Soook, not in tunnels but in hallways and offices in the hospital. Not much practical difference except not as well hidden as Israel believed.
…Hamas was conducting raids from the hallways and offices of an active hospital in a war zone?
The point I was making is that the Israeli official position changed. They said they needed to attack because of an active base in the tunnels. There is no evidence of a base in the tunnels. They found a small weapons cache! Yes, that makes sense, they were treating wounded people in a war one, some of them would would have weapons, which would need to go somewhere.
When Israeli forces took the hospital, there was scant evidence of their position. If there was good evidence, we would have definitely heard about it. I can only conclude that Israeli intelligence was either wrong or lying, barring good evidence to the contrary.
my favorite is that everybody is referring to the israel palestine thing as a genocide, but i have yet to see anybody piss and shit themselves over what russia is doing to ukraine.
Let alone what russia is doing to it’s own domestic population. Take a guess on how putin is still popular after putting hundreds of thousands of people to death in a needless war.
Huh?? The West has been almost entirely united behind Ukraine. I mean it’s the controversial stuff that gets clicks but there’s plenty of hatred for Russia to go around. Hell there’s graphic videos on Lemmy of Russian soldiers being blown to bits and no one bats an eye.
For one thing, the US sends huge amounts of money to Ukraine for defense against Russia, and huge amounts of money to Israel for “defense” against Palestine. I care way less what people “piss and shit themselves over” than where the material support goes.
this isn’t explicitly true, we spend money on ukraine because russia is illegally invading ukraine, but i’ll give you that one, since most people know that by now.
What we also know, is that russia holding military positions in ukraine, destabilizes the rest of the EU, because now the border states are much more concerned about active invasion. Which disrupts trade, and the global economy, it’s generally a bad thing.
What we know about israel in particular, is that israel is a massive force projector for the US in the middle east, the US is essentially doing their bidding through israel in that regard. If you think the entirety of the bidding that the US is doing is just bombing Palestinians, you probably need to go do some reading.
Like don’t get me wrong, i don’t like it either, i’m not a huge fan, but it’s kind of just the name of the game unfortunately, which btw we have the US retract slightly on it’s stance in the matter, which is a good thing.
quick edit: although to be clear, i was most talking about how people were being overly dramatic about the whole ordeal completely killing any care i had in it at all.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. And I can only laugh when people say shit like “people got too upset that their taxes are funding genocide, and it made me stop caring about the genocide”.
Yeah but Trump would end support to Ukraine.
What does this have to do with my reply or the other user’s comment?
That in the very real and current contest between Biden and Trump that Biden at least supports Ukraine, whereas Trump supports Russia and would likely support Isreal to the extent of starting WWIII in the middle east to bring about the apocalypse for his evangelical base, who earnestly believe they’ll be raptured to heaven while the rest of us live through a nightmarish helscape. Which is looking less crazy by the day because some people won’t vote for an old man who doesn’t 100% align with their political views vs fanatical insanity spearheaded by an also old man.
So nothing, really. I’m also not very convinced that any US president is going to deviate very far from foreign policy status quo-- Trump loves the weapons manufacturers as much as Biden does, and both conflicts are ultimately a gift to them.
when the victims are lighter skinned
When the victims aren’t strategic to US interests*
While that may be partially true, The Guardian ironically has a good opinion piece of the exact quotes being said by news reporter about “European” children getting bombed from 2022. Sometimes it IS related to the colour of their eyes and skin, and dismissive comments like yours come across pretty ignorant.
Some reporters being racist, doesn’t mean that sensibilities of people aren’t moved when it’s non-white people, this was very patent during China’s oppressive policies against Uyghur in Xinjiang. There were years of condemnation and of people calling it genocide, and there was massive outcry here on Reddit. Would you say Uyghur are white, or is it just convenient to remember them and being concerned because the whole thing paints China in a bad light? I didn’t see nearly the same level of outrage during the actual genocide against Rohingya Muslims in south-east Asia.
This is what it is and it’s ironic cause Palestinians aren’t even that dark.
Sudan civil war what? too dark 4 me
Considering that Netanyahu was having corruption charges levied against him before October 7th… well, from the Israelis I’ve talked to, the intelligence was there to prevent the attack, and the brass let it happen. War time leaders tend to hold on to power a lot easier. In addition to the gas deposits off the Gazan coast, and the whole beach front property development thing that Israeli corporations are advertising. It’s terrible what has been happening on Gaza (obviously) BUUUT, I mean, they’re surrounded by much larger countries that are hostile to them. WHY they are hostile, well, that is where cracking open a history book comes in.
Netanyahu is just the latest in a long list of demons, the invasion of Palestine didn’t start on October 7th.
Terrible is understanding what have been done this will go as the crime of sententry
I mean, it is the classic cycle of human hate right. I talked to a (gorgeous, I will add, sue me, I like pretty girls) Israeli girl for a few months after Oct 7th. Hearing her perspective of things was educating. If I was on a date and had someone at the table next to me get stabbed in the neck by a random passerby, I would be a bit jaded as well. Having regular alarms to hide from missile attacks etc. Obviously, genocide bad. The Palestinians have it far worse, and are being used as proxies by Iran because of the whole mini-cold war that has been going on in the middle east for a while. However, life is rarely black and white. Unless it’s like serial killer/rapist/torturer shit. Deprogramming generational hatred on an individual basis takes a great degree of patience and understanding of nuance. Calling all Israelis evil monsters is NOT how you fix the problem, my 2 cents.
I will leave this song here as an example of the Israeli perspective, I thought it was pretty spicy:
In conversations like this where there is a never ending tit-for-tat of violent revenge I wonder why humans in gerneral just can’t stop being shitheads. Palestinians are treated like third-class people, their land slowly stolen, and face constant prejudice. So of course that fuels the violence towards Israel. Then Israel treats Palestinians like shit, and the cycle never stops. Why we have to dig our heels and force the other side to cede first like a couple 5 year olds arguing.
There is no ceding for Palestine. They allowed terrorists to operate with impunity in their neighborhoods and hospitals. It has always been hamas and in extension Palestine peoples goal to destroy Israel. It’s what the Palestine people voted for, the organization founded with the goal of destroying Israel and right after they murdered any opposition parties. Now they beg for mercy don’t they?
If it’s just about Hamas, then why are they also attacking and taking land in the West Bank? Hamas has no control on influence there, by Israeli design by the way.
If it’s just about Hamas why are IDF soldiers going on social media and celebrating the suffering of civilians, pregnant women and children? Are babies Hamas from the moment of conception?
At least learn some critical thinking skills, snowflake.
Maybe because they(civilians) elected Hamas to gov’t then they murdered the other opposing parties. Critically thinking if They elect a organization founded with the goal of the destruction of Israel then how would IDF treat them?
Here, let me say this in all caps because you’re clearly a bit thick and have never opened a history book or a map: BRO HAMAS HAS NEVER OPERATED IN THE WEST BANK.
I bet you don’t even know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza actually. It’s pointless to talk to someone that doesn’t even understand the basics of the geographic location they’re talking about, never mind the geopolitical nuances.
That’s what you want? No mercy until the people of Palestine are groveling at your feet? Wonder if they’ll ever be low enough for you to offer them that mercy.
I’m saying. Palestine will vote in another terrorist organization to their gov’t. They will not live aside Israel. It is them who are too high and mighty. The way you just ignore how they elected a terrorist organization to their government like literally the only reason the organization was founded and started is to destroy Israel is bizarre. You act like that was normal and fine for them to do.
History books have nothing to do with middle east. They’re mostly brainwashed with a different version of history growing up. What happens in the middle east is about portraying power and exerting control and influence in the middle east. To keep the status quo. None of them want an actual war they’re all weak anyway that’s why they abandon the Hamas terrorists.
It’s extremely frustrating to hold the apparently controversial opinion that killing civilians is, consistently, a bad thing.
The controversy is this. Do we REALLY want to vote for Trump who is going to take away our freedoms, dismantle democracy and probably won’t do anything to stop the genocide in Gaza anyway? Or are we going to vote for the candidate that definitely won’t stop the genocide in Gaza but will at least ensure we maintain a democracy? Its not a good choice either way but I have my own life to look out for and will vote accordingly.
The greatest service Biden could do to this country (and also the world) is make it so that felons can’t run for president and then drop out of the race.
Let’s not forget that trump supported the move of Israel’s capital to goddamn Jerusalem
So Hamas killing civilians is a bad thing too? Gonna start calling out people showing support for Hamas at protests?
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So Hamas killing civilians is a bad thing too?
Yes, obviously. Why do you ask? Since you asked, I may as well ask, is Israel killing civilians a bad thing?
Gonna start calling out people showing support for Hamas at protests?
Sure, if you see them, kick them to the curb. Do you agree that there’s a difference between supporting Palestine and supporting Hamas?
Do you agree that there’s a difference between supporting Palestine and supporting Hamas?
Hard to tell at this point. Hamas flags, people cosplaying as Hamas, people saying October 7 was justified. Antisemitism is becoming more and more commonplace. Protests at synagogues, attacks on Jewish businesses.
The Palestinian movement hasn’t made a whole lot of effort in clearly denouncing Hamas. If it were a non-violent resistance movement, then I wouldn’t hesitate to support it. But it’s not a non-violent movement.
I’ve had many conversations with Palestinian supporters on Lemmy and they’ve convinced me it’s a fascist movement. Almost the exact same conversations as I’ve had with MAGAs, just with a different target for their hatred.
Alright.
Firstly, I think a lot of how you’re framing the pro-Palestine protests is either unfair or inaccurate. That’s not to say that you are being unfair or inaccurate, but the sources where you get your information might be. (I will agree that antisemitism is on the rise, and demands a response. I just see more of it from the right, even from Zionists who either want to remove diasporic Jews or support a model of an ethnostate). So, if you don’t draw a distinction between supporting Palestine and supporting Hamas, there’s no conversation to be had, because we’re not really dealing with what protestors do, say, or believe. While you compared this to MAGA, it’s the exact same rhetoric used by MAGA to attack BLM, which itself mirrored the rhetoric used against the Civil Rights Movement.
But it’s also not worth getting into the weeds unless we can find some common ground, so I’d like to ask you the same question again: Is it bad when Israel kills civilians?
It’s kinda like the old saw “the best argument for gun control is a five minute conversation with a gun-rights advocate”.
The best argument against the Palestinian movement is a conversation with a “free Palestine” type.
Are you saying you haven’t noticed the antisemitism in this movement? Or are you just looking the other way?
I think a lot of how you’re framing the pro-Palestine protests is either unfair or inaccurate.
Is it bad when Israel kills civilians?
Begging the question. Ever consider that you’re framing of Israel is either unfair and inaccurate? Civilian casualties are always bad, but you’re not framing it being civilian casualties in a war. Because that leads us back to how this war started, which was the genocidal acts committed by Hamas on October 7. But you don’t frame it as civilian casualties in a war, you frame it as “Israel killing civilians.” As if it’s impossible for any of the bullets and rockets fired by Hamas to kill a Palestinian.
This is entirely a propaganda thing. Thinking solely in terms of “framing” and refusing to think about certain facts which are inconvenient to the narrative that you’ve chosen to subscribe to. You think in terms of framing, but I’m thinking in terms of facts. Hamas deliberately killed as many people they could, except for the people they took hostage. They took hostages to force Israel into a ground war in Gaza. And the war continues on because Hamas refuses to release those hostages. Those are facts, but since it’s inconvenient to the “Israel kills civilians” narrative and screams about genocide you’ll just go on pretending Israel is the bad guy while Hamas holds Israeli civilians hostage, which is a war crime and the reason why this war (along with the civilian casualties associated with a war urban combat) drags on.
I am perfectly happy with how I presented myself, actually. And I think you also revealed a lot about yourself, too. If you’re happy with what that is, then that’s all there is to it.
I do think it’s worth pointing out that the thing that really seemed to set you off was asking you the same question you asked me. I answered it easily, and you took great offense while hurling insults and misrepresenting positions I’ve already put down in words. Why should I get into the facts when you don’t really care about the facts, or what I have to say?
If the question of whether Israel killing civilians is bad (not even unjustified, not even criminal, just bad) bothers you… maybe that’s a good thing. I certainly have no problem supporting Palestine while condemning Hamas, or supporting Jews while condemning Israel. It’s possible you just didn’t want to voice an unpopular position, but maybe it bothers you that you can’t say “yes, it’s bad.” If that’s the case, keep pulling on that thread. I think you could use some self-reflection, especially given this last post. I’m sorry, but this was a lot of the pot calling the kettle black.
I sincerely hope you have a better tomorrow. I know you’re angry and frustrated, but I hope you can find peace and understanding.
Just wanna say this was an incredibly measured, rational, empathetic, teaching moment.
Reminds me of my college seminar professors.
You’re only worth moral consideration if those in power want you to be.
Wars, racism, homophobia, etc. These are just the results of those who have the power to ignore those they deem not worthy, doing whatever they want.
It ranges from current wars, to past wars, to the Holocaust, to 9/11, to eating animals, to Epstein, etc.
Maybe one day we will realize that someones worth should not be assigned by others.
We are all equal or we are all dead.
Hell, a while ago France24 wasn’t even using the terms “Israel” or “IDF” in any of it’s reporting on the sacking of Gaza - they were literally pretending the bullets, bombs and missiles was being fired and dropped by some unknown party.
I am tired of these comparisions. The Ukraine war has a clear good and a clear bad side. The same cannot be said about the Israel/Palastine war. Both parties are equally shitty. There is just one side much more powerful so more capable to commit cruelties. The only clear good people here are the civillians suffering on both sides.
It’s the opposite. Israel/Palestine war has a clear evil side (Israel) and a clear victim (Palestine). Ukraine war is a complicated mess.
So the victims are the ones who openly call for the death of an entire group of people? Their founding Charter literally calls for the elimination of Jews… and after they slaughtered the women and children in October they said they’ll do it again. They’re the victim to you? Interesting.
That is a wild and backwards take!
Seems like both articles should be horrified about a bombed hospital but maybe that’s just me.
i would argue both articles should probably just be talking about how hospitals were bombed, rather than writing an entire diatribe on the emotional states of everyone involved.
But that’s just me, i like my reporting neutral.
Sure but one article is a breaking news type of article and one is about a bad thing that has already happened and now they are merely entering the hospital.
I dont know the specific of either event but is it possible that more people died in the Ukrainian hospital?
is it possible that more people died in the Ukrainian hospital?
No, it’s not. Al-Jazeera reports 2 deaths in the Ukrainian hospital, The Guardian reports 4. IDF reports 200 Palestinian casualties in Al-Shifa, Palestinian authorities report 400+.
I know you’re getting down voted to hell but I agree. People are losing sight of just how shitty Hamas is. This is exactly what they wanted, they care even less about their own peoples lives, happy to use them as human shields. A hundred thousand martyrs. Fucking embarrassing to be human sometimes.
No one is losing sight of that, they’re correctly making the point that there is no justification for bombing a hospital full of patients and that the justification the IDF gave has been found to be false.
A hospital full of civilians being bombed is bad regardless of the context. There’s no point in media outlets spinning shit like this. They’re just acting as propagandists for Israel by throwing softballs like this.
The Ukraine war has a clear good and a clear bad side. The same cannot be said about the Israel/Palastine war.
It’s funny, because I’ve seen so many white nationalists assert the exact opposite.
white nationalists assert
Palestine is far more black and white than Ukraine. I’d recommend you read up on it.
far more black and white? What in the ever living fuck are you talking about?
Ukraine was literally legally guaranteed that russia wouldn’t invade them, after taking their nuclear weapons. Russia LITERALLY broke this agreement. How much more black and white can you get than quite literally going against what you’ve said?
Care to explain it if it’s so simple? You have no idea what your talking about…
Israel = Nazis.
It’s literally that simple.
You must be literal genius
Holdup! The Israilies are trying to create the aryan race and kill all Jews? Man…it really IS complicated!
Israel is white supremacists trying to kill brown people and expand their Lebensraum.
So complicated.
Simple:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
The whole “so difficult conflict which goes so far back that it’s impossible to know who’s guilty at this point”, starts in the late 40s with the invasion of Palestinian land by Zionist settlers, and the violent displacement of 750.000+ locals.
Nothing about middle east conflicts is close to black and white. I’d recommend you read up on it.
Nothing about middle east conflicts
Spoken like a true racist, grouping up “middle east conflicts” as if it was a single entity.
Pretty easy actually, Palestinians were there living their lives and having a sense of nationality as Palestinians since the latter years of the Ottoman Empire. Zionists decided they didn’t care about that, decided they deserved their ancestral homeland, and western countries helped them militarily to relocate hundreds of thousands of people and murder tens of thousands on top. It’s almost quite literally that easy.
Spoken like a true racist, grouping up “middle east conflicts” as if it was a single entity.
most people would do the same for general geographic regions though.
If it were a war between germany and france for example, it would be referred to as a “western” war. Russia vs China would be eastern for example.
Most of these wars are culturally related, especially in the middle east where they seem to have a particular style of warfare, it only seems fair to refer to it as “middle eastern” arguably, the only one that isn’t really doing this style of warfare here is israel. Though they clearly have reservations on morals.
Wow, funny, I didn’t hear the bombing of Yugoslavia and its disintegration, the invasion of Ukraine, and similar conflicts in Europe ever called altogether “European issues”, but separated very well individually.
well technically, semantically it would be “eastern european” even though it’s not really a thing. And it is generally considered to be a “european” problem, if you look into the matters from a more global perspective, it’s entirely fair to state that.
My main point though was that it’s not “racist” to exclaim that, it’s just incredibly broad and referential. Which in current times is probably reasonable.
My point is that extremely broad claims about extremely different and unrelated issues, and painting them all “oh so difficult”, is a tool used by western media to make people think the problems are too complicated to be solved and there’s just nothing to do about violence in “the middle east”, as US and its allies weren’t responsible for more than half of it.
I’m Iranian, and there’s no hope of going home any time soon. It’s perfectly acceptable to lump the middle east in that statement. Show me one conflict in that region that’s not black and white.
Show me one conflict in that region that’s not black and white.
I assume you mean the opposite. I’ll bring you one about your own country.
In the Mosaddegh era, a democratically elected, secular, progressive, leftist leader was well on the way of successful policy for Iranians through the nationalization of the oil industry which, up until then, as you probably know better than I do, was extracted by the British Petroleum with the knowledge and approval of the Shah (thanks to some juicy “contributions” to his personal fortune paid by the British), leaving almost no profit from the Iranian oil to the Iranian people. The British blockaded Iran militarily, and through MI6, with help of CIA, staged false-flag attacks on private businesses through paid actors who pretended to be communists (the party was in Mosaddegh’s coalition). They literally bribed local mafias and gave them loudspeakers to pretend they were popular protests to prime people. And the poverty induced by the military economical blockade, summed up with all this shit and much more, made it so that the Mosaddegh government was deposed and the status-quo was more or less restored, and British Petroleum was happy.
Tell me how that’s not black and white.
That isn’t how racism works…is racist turning into the left version of “woke”? His comment wasn’t even out of ignorance, that is what that area is referred to, and nothing about conflicts in that area (including the topic at hand) is black and white…
Grouping up a whole set of countries, ethnicities, histories and conflicts into a “middle east” category and call treating it all as a homogenous “non-black and white” issue is racist, sorry.
nothing about conflicts in that area (including the topic at hand) is black and white
Thank you for ignoring the inconvenient part of my previous comment. Please tell me how the first Nakba isn’t black and white.
It is the name of that region and conflicts within it are still conflicts in the Middle East. Still not racist, sorry. You get this worked up over people mentioning Europe or “The West”?
Imagine saying a literal Nazi style Genocide is not black and white.
Are you going to say Hitler actually had a point next?
Godwin’s Law strikes again. The sure sign that someone has run out of logic for an argument
Are you denying israel is committing Genocide?
Yep
are you denying the war that russia is waging against ukraine?
No but I don’t see how that’s relevant here.
Just stop. This conflict has been going on for ages and is so complex, people have to actually study this shit to even remotely understand it.
Russia just fucked Ukraine.
All of this aside, the comparison of the two headlines is just dumb. The left side was from 2023, right after it happened. This was the official statement back then. What should they have written instead? They even used quotation marks. Fucking hell.
You understand neither conflict and speak of it as if you do.
There was never a Hamas base found in al Shiva that was a lie. The left headline is Zionist propaganda from the Guardian.
No, it was the official statement back then before investigations were made. This happened a couple of days after the Hamas kidnapped and killed a shit ton of Israelis. There still was some miniscule amount of credibility in this official statement, which turned out to be bullshit after a while.
And yes, I absolutely understand the invasion by Russia. That is not a complicated thing. I do not fully understand the Israel - Palestine conflict and neither do you. There’s also way more parties involved than Israel and Palestine.
What you’re doing is posting disgusting populist propaganda, downplaying the horrors of one conflict to shift attention to another. Just stop. Both conflicts are fucking disgusting.
Israel never had any credibilty before oct7. Every sane journalist knew how much israel lies about everything. Such as how israel killed an American journalist 1 year earlier and lied about it for half a year straight. Putting their lies in the headline is pure undeniable propaganda there is no plausible deniability.
Never have I downplayed what happens in Ukraine. I am only pointing out how the media heavily manipulates people in favor of Israel. Showing the extreme double standard.
And if you think Russia and Ukraine are the only players you understand as much of it as I stated before.
Okay, so Russia Invaded Ukraine. Russia is the Aggressor.
The Hamas attacked Israel, so Israel exterminates Palestine and claims it wants to exterminate the Hamas. The Hamas have committed Warcrimes and hides the self behind Civilians and the IDF does a whole lot of warcrimes too. Both sides are shirt, just the IDF has done a bit more shit than the Hamas. Theres no good side in this conflict. Both sides want to exterminate each other and sacrifice the Palestinian civilians for this.
I don’t know where you see a more black and white scheme in the middle east conflict than in the Ukraine war, but I’m willing to read your explanation.
You appear to forget 75 years of israel invading Palestine. And putting Palestinians in a concentration camp.
And 75 Years of the Hamas Attacking Israel. Israel has killed much more Palestinians that the other way around, but its still more complicated than The Ukraine war.
Hamas has not existed for 75 years. It is born as a resistance movement against Genocide.
Than let me formulate it in another way: 75 years of the Palestinian also attacking Israel.
75 years of Palestinians resisting colonization you mean right?
Hamas hasn’t been around for 75 years.
There was no nation of israel before Israel committed mass murder and near genocide on the Palestinian people. Then they shoved them into the concentration camp of Gaza. Made them.wear special green badges just like the Nazis made them wear the star of David arm bands. They make Palestinian people walk on the opposite side of the street in many places. They do not have the same rights to life liberty or property that Jews have. The Israelis were the first aggressors. And have continued almost 100 years of brutalization against the civilian people. The Israelis are no better than the Nazis that they fled from and in my opinion are not deserving of a nation of their own.
Ukraine has also been attacking russian troops since the beginning of the invasion, what’s your point?
That highlights the point precisely. Ukraine is targeting Russian troops, i.e. legitimate military targets. Hamas targets civilians and uses civilians as human shields. The IDF doesnt care how many civilians they have to go through to get to Hamas.
Ukraine is targeting Russian troops
They also started sending unmanned air vehicles with explosives to Russian infrastructure such as oil. Which I’m not against. Because they’re defending themselves against an invasion. As Palestine is doing. The situation of Palestinians is much, MUCH more dire than that of Ukrainians, so it’s only to be expected (not to be confused with justified) that their response is also more violent.
uses civilians as human shields
Sorry, but that’s strictly false, and propagating that shit is heinous. I’ll paste here what someone else said in the comments:
So this piece doesn’t source any evidence that it was used and ignores the literal fact that later investigations by Amnesty didn’t find credible evidence of use as a military base and the massive Israeli misinformation campaign on that front: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_military_use_of_al-Shifa_hospital#:~:text=During the Israel–Hamas war,Hamas and hospital administrators denied.
But yeah let’s justify Israel bombing away access to medical care to people forced into a small, war torn area because fuck Palestinians I guess.
My point is, that in The current conflict the Hamas attacked first. Ukraine didnt.
Hamas attacked first
Palestinians was there before Israel was even conceived, and the first Nakba, in 1948, which marks the hard line of the invasion, in which 750k+ Palestinians were forcibly relocated, was started by Israel. History didn’t start on October 7th
Ukraine attacked first after Russia invaded them.
The only difference is one of those people is brown and you believe colonizing brown people is okay.
Dude they have been fighting for the whole time and for every bad thing Isreal has done Hamas has done one back.
Ever heard of the saying “and eye for an eye and the whole world is blind”. Well both sides are blind now.
The only correct take is that both sides suck and the palastenian people are the ones who suffer. To take a side in this conflict is uninformed, as both sides have way too much blood on their hands. This is very far from black and white and simple.
This is just blatantly false. You don’t know anything about the history.
What was the 2018 march to return? Only one side is seeking peace. And israel only seeks destruction.
This Genocide is what israel has been doing for over 75 years.
Dude they have been fighting for the whole time and for every bad thing Isreal has done Hamas has done one back.
Damn, that’s disgusting. I’ll rephrase it in terms that hopefully will make you understand why it’s disgusting: “Ukraine has been fighting back the invasion the whole time, and for every bad thing Russia has done, Ukraine has done one back”
Ever heard of the saying “and eye for an eye and the whole world is blind”. Well both sides are blind now.
What are Palestinians supposed to do? Peacefully accept being relocated and murdered by the hundreds of thousands? Should Ukrainians just have given up? Is Ukraine wrong for targeting infrastructure inside Russia with explosive unmanned air vehicles now?
The only correct take is that both sides suck and the palastenian people are the ones who suffer. To take a side in this conflict is uninformed, as both sides have way too much blood on their hands. This is very far from black and white and simple.
One side has blood on their hands because it’s the invader, the other has blood on their hands because it’s the invaded. This is the most stupid take I’ve seen.
And helping Hamas get into power in order to
- destroy Palestinian unity
- squash secular, progressive, democratic leadership
- promote violence
If you want to see what happens when Palestinians cooperate with Israel, look at the West Bank:
75 years of history that quite literally nullifies it being black and white, because history, as well understood by historians, only makes things more clearly visible, obviously.
75 years of Genocide makes it pretty black and white to me.
You’re kinda downplaying the word genocide with your comment. Not a very efficient genocide if it’s been going on for 75 years.
This is not an opinion of mine, it’s what I read from your comment.
and germany was committing genocide for 45 years??? (hitlers general age of doing things)
Please fuck off.
