I’ve been looking around for a scripting language that:
- has a cli interpreter
- is a “general purpose” language (yes, awk is touring complete but no way I’m using that except for manipulating text)
- allows to write in a functional style (ie. it has functions like map, fold, etc and allows to pass functions around as arguments)
- has a small disk footprint
- has decent documentation (doesn’t need to be great: I can figure out most things, but I don’t want to have to look at the interpter source code to do so)
- has a simple/straightforward setup (ideally, it should be a single executable that I can just copy to a remote system, use to run a script and then delete)
Do you know of something that would fit the bill?
Here’s a use case (the one I run into today, but this is a recurring thing for me).
For my homelab I need (well, want) to generate a luhn mod n check digit (it’s for my provisioning scripts to generate synchting device ids from their certificates).
I couldn’t find ready-made utilities for this and I might actually need might a variation of the “official” algorithm (IIUC syncthing had a bug in their initial implementation and decided to run with it).
I don’t have python (or even bash) available in all my systems, and so my goto language for script is usually sh (yes, posix sh), which in all honestly is quite frustrating for manipulating data.
luajitis small, fast(well, it can jit), and has a small but complete standard library and can do FFI pretty easily, should be ideal for most homelab usecaseldd $(which luajit) linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007ffee9dc7000) libm.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so.6 (0x00007fb4db618000) libdl.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl.so.2 (0x00007fb4db613000) libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x00007fb4db5f3000) libc.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 (0x00007fb4db3ca000) /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007fb4db799000)If you can, just use Perl. Probably installed on your systems, even the ones without python.
So often the right answer, perl. It’s a shame that it’s so unfashionable these days.
Why aren’t python and bash be available in all your systems? Which languages would be?
I would’ve recommended python, otherwise perl or Haskell (maybe Haskell’s too big) or something, but now I’m worried that whatever reason makes python undoable also makes perl etc. undoable
Why aren’t python and bash be available in all your systems?
Among others, I run stuff on alpine and openwrt.
I don’t need to run these scripts everywhere (strictly speaking, I don’t need the homlab at all), but I was wondering if there’s something that I can adopt as a default goto solution without having to worry about how each system is packaged/configured.
As for python, I doubt the full version would fit in my router plus as said I don’t want to deal with libraries/virtualenvs/… and (in the future) with which distro comes with python3 vs pyton4 (2 vs 3 was enough). Openwrt does have smaller python packages, but then I would be using different implementations on different systems: again something I’d rather not deal with.
As for perl, it would be small enough, but I find it a bit archaic/esoteric (prejudice, I know), plus again I don’t want to deal with how every distro decides to package the different things (eg. openwrt has some 40+ packages for perl - if I were doing serious development that would be ok, but I don’t want to worry about that for just some scripts).
You’ve defined yourself into an impossible bind: you want something extremely portable, universal but with a small disk imprint, and you want it to be general purpose and versatile.
The problem is that to be universal and general purpose, you need a lot of libraries to interact with whatever type of systems you might have it on (and the peculiarities of each), and you need libraries that do whatever type of interactions with those systems that you specify.
E.g. under-the-hood, python’s
open("<filename>", 'r')is a systemcall to the kernel. But is that Linux? BSD? Windows NT? Android? Mach?What if you want your script to run a CLI command in a subshell? Should it call “cmd”? or “sh”? or “powershell”? Okay, okay, now all you need it to do is show the contents of a file… But is the command “cat” or “type” or “Get-FileContents”?
Or maybe you want to do more than simple read/write to files and string operations. Want to have graphics? That’s a library. Want serialization for data? That’s a library. Want to read from spreadsheets? That’s a library. Want to parse XML? That’s a library.
So you’re looking at a single binary that’s several GBs in size, either as a standalone or a self-extracting installer.
Okay, maybe you’ll only ever need a small subset of libraries (basic arithmetic, string manipulation, and file ops, all on standard glibc gnu systems ofc), so it’s not really “general purpose” anymore. So you find one that’s small, but it doesn’t completely fit your use case (for example, it can’t parse uci config files); you find another that does what you need it to, but also way too much and has a huge footprint; you find that perfect medium and it has a small, niche userbase… so the documentation is meager and it’s not easy to learn.
At this point you realize that any language that’s both easy to learn and powerful enough to manage all instances of some vague notion of “computer” will necessarily evolve to being general purpose. And being general purpose requires dependencies. And dependencies reduce portability.
At this point your options are: make your own language and interpreter that does exactly what you want and nothing more (so all the dependencies can be compiled in), or decide which criteria you are willing to compromise on.
Is compiling scripts an option? Aka compiling them in C, C++, Rust, whatever for your router on another machine, and copying and executing those binaries on your router?
if there’s something that I can adopt as a default goto solution without having to worry about how each system is packaged/configured.
Go is probably your best bet. Simple to use, and you can compile it so it runs everywhere
I found installing Go-sdk a total PiTA. It is okay as a developer environment. But bash + gnu utils + core utils seem much more sane to me.
Of course I mostly work with Linux systems and hardly ever have to deal with Scripting for Windoze.
Sounds like you want MicroPython. It’s definitely available on OpenWrt and AlpineLinux and has a very small footprint.
If you don’t like Python, have a look at Lua/luajit.
Mate, I came on here to post Haskell as a semi-ironic ‘joke’ and it’s included in the top comment. You’ve made my day.
I mean, it’s a functional programming language and an incredibly good one. But it probably has a far too big footprint for their use-case…
Oh, I know. I adore Haskell.
I honestly love Powershell, but haven’t tried the Linux version yet. I only use Bash on linux but it has a load of odd quirks that make it unpleasant to use imo. Can’t comment on anything else.
Pwsh 7.x works very well in Linux. Haven’t got any snags.
I’ve looked into this a lot actually. There see many options. I’ll highlight the pros and cons of each option.
Lua: extremely lightweight, but standard library is lacking, and doesn’t include stuff like map or fold. But that would be easy to fix.
Python: thicc standard library, but is not lightweight by any means. There are modifications made to be more shell like, such as xonsh
Rash: based on scheme, very much functional but if you’re not used to lisp style, might take a bit to get used to it. This is actually my favorite option. It has a cli interpreter, and really pleasant to use. Cons is… Well it’s not very common
You can honestly use any language. Even most compiled languages have a way to run immediately.
I still love bash. I’m able to accomplish quite a lot with it. I vote bash.
Also vote bash, but I don’t love it…more of a tolerate.
Bash? On windows it’s pretty much unusable even if you use cygwin. Python or Lua are the only reasonable suggestions here
Quickly came to write “AWK!!!” but yeah… you don’t want its superiority… 😜
Not quite a scripting language, but I highly recommend you check out cosmo for your usecase. Cosmopolitan, and/or Actually Portable Executable (APE for short) is a project to compile a single binary in such a way that is is extremely portable, and that single binary can be copied across multiple operating systems and it will still just run. It supports, windows, linux, mac, and a few BSD’s.
https://cosmo.zip/pub/cosmos/bin/ — this is where you can download precompiled binaries of certain things using cosmo.
From my testing, the APE version of python works great, and is only 34 megabytes, + 12 kilobytes for the ape elf interpreter.
In addition to python, cosmopolitan also has precompiled binaries of:
And a few more, like tclsh, zsh, dash or emacs (53 MB), which I’m pretty sure can be used as an emacs lisp intepreter.
And it should be noted these may require the ape elf interpeter, which is 12 kilobytes, or the ape assimilate program, which is 476 kilobytes.
I would go with Guile, because it is built-in to the Guix Package Manager which is a really good general-purpose package manager.
It ticks several of your boxes:
- has a CLI interpreter
- is a general purpose language, Scheme, amd compliant with revisions 5, 6, and 7 of the language standard
- allows writing in a functional style (it is one of the original functional programming languages)
- small disk footprint, but still large enough to be “batteries included”
- decent documentation, especially if you use Emacs
- simple setup: not so much, unless you are using Guix to begin with. The standard distribution ships with lots of pre-built bytecode files, you need an installer script to install everything.
It also has pretty good libraries for system maintenance and reporting:
Since you like guile, I would recommend you checkout rash (search “rash shell language” on Google. Sorry too lazy to link it).
It is based on racket, but made to be shell-like, and is very nice. I believe guile used to have a similar project that isn’t maintained anymore.
Perl is already installed on most linux machines and unless you start delving into module usage, you won’t need to install anything else.
Python is more fashionable, but needs installing on the host and environments can get complicated. I don’t think it scales as well as Perl, if that’s a concern of yours.
That verb doesn’t work like that.
Why not give (Common)LISP a try?
Technically, you could bundle a Perl script with the interpreter on another system using
ppand run the packed version on systems with no installed Perl, but at that point you might as well just use a compiled language.I don’t know if it matches your desire for easy install of small disk space, but it might make up for it in other arenas - Ruby is my new-found love when making simple scripts. Being able to mostly emulate the shell integration that bash has by just using backticks to call a shell command is the killer feature in my book.
There’s always nushell. It’s fairly new, not quite to 1.0 yet (0.96.1 at time of writing), but the constant breaking changes seemed to have stopped. It hits all your points and it’s quite fun to use when writing scripts. Bonus that it’s also pretty much tailor-made to manipulate data.
