A lot of economists don’t listen to anything Joseph Stiglitz says, because he’s not from the Chicago school. Economics is so stupid.
dismal, even
Except “dismal science” wasn’t meant as a critique.
A lot dumb takes in the comment section here. It’s astounding the conclusions people come to. Joseph Stiglitz is absolutely right, but a lot of you need to view societies in a less rigid, linear, and positively Manichean manner.
Class conflict from inequalities keeps resulting in the same patterns across many different countries and throughout history and we’re supposedly black and white thinkers for calling it out? Bernie keeps saying the same thing over and over too, but that’s because it’s true.
Bernie’s not saying “Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds” and insisting that all forms of capitalism inevitably lead to fascism. All forms of capitalism are bad (or, at least, worse than socialism), but the idea that fascism is just an outgrowth of liberalism, and of liberalism specifically, ignores… so goddamn much history. The atmosphere in here is very anti-SocDem.
Liberalism allows asymmetric power between the wealthy and the working class and the wealthy aren’t threatened by fascism, but they are threatened by socialism. That’s one of the ways in which liberalism leads to fascism.
When times are good liberals don’t directly try to implement fascism, but as times get tough and the working class begins to have unrest then fascism is the direction the pressure releases in, because given the choice the capitalists will take it over socialism every time.
Not reining in capital is the fault of liberalism
Liberalism allows asymmetric power between the wealthy and the working class and the wealthy aren’t threatened by fascism, but they are threatened by socialism.
If we’re counting that as ‘leading to fascism’, wouldn’t that be true of every system with power imbalances?
Fascism has a specific definition that also relates to capitalism but otherwise you’re right that those in power will cling to power.
Fascism is one such outcome that occurs when capitalism is under threat.
In that case, when you say “Liberalism leads to fascism”, what you mean is “Liberalism creates the preconditions necessary for fascism”, just like liberalism creates the preconditions necessary for socialism.
Not exactly. Part of the characteristics of liberalism is that it’s supportive of capitalism and capitalism can be regulated but will tend to move towards increasing power imbalances, artificial scarcity, and environmental destruction.
Those things cause strain on a liberal society, and that strain leads that society to go into turmoil. Populism begins to happen, but collective resistance to the capitalist ruling class is strongly suppressed while other forms of harmful populism like racism and desire for war are allowed to fester or even amplified.
Capitalism is the dog, but liberalism is the neglecful owner that lets go out the leash
The reason capitalism leads to fascism is that inevitably capitalism will lead to untenable inequality. Injustice will be too great to ignore between the rich and the rest. This will lead to populism.
There are two forms of populism. One will seek to rectify the imbalances caused by capitalism. The other will seek to divert blame to minorities. If there were less blacks, immigrants, gays, Jews, etc. etc. then our society would not be in decay. One is much more useful to the Capitalist and so it will ultimately prevail. The capitalist will devote all resources to crushing the leftist populism up to and including directly funding fascism.
One is much more useful to the Capitalist and so it will ultimately prevail. The capitalist will devote all resources to crushing the leftist populism up to and including directly funding fascism.
Unless. We have to spread these ideas to as many people as possible. We can’t afford to call it early.
*unregulated undemocratic capitalism
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if you want to implement unpopular policies, authoritarian regime is the way
That’s not necessarily true, many supposedly democratic regimes consistently pass unpopular policy and don’t pass popular policy. E.g. welfare state cuts to expenditure in education, healthcare and pensions in post-2008 EU, or the lack of progressive policy in USA healthcare.
It’s precisely this ignoring of the popular will that turns people to fascism
The depressing thing is that fascists are popular enough to gain power. The populist pose, some scapegoating of minorities, and a dash of lying about their goals, is enough to win over many voters, and in a first-past-the-post system it doesn’t matter if the majority of the people don’t like them.
Pretty much sums up the UK since 2010.
Sums up many places, unfortunately.
The market is authoritarian.
Thanks Reagan
*Milton Friedman
And every president since Reagan, including him.
Thing is…there is no real free market with proper competition, anyway. If there was such a thing, my groceries wouldn’t cost double now from what they were a mere five years ago (or quadruple, if looking at soda like Coke and Pepsi products). There is rampant collusion and price-fixing going on and not a damn government official seems to be doing anything about it. And yeah, the “but but the pandemic” excuse runs pretty thin as the years of this gouging continues.
In the USA, the FCC is actually taking grocery store chains to court over collusion and price fixing, presumably will target specific brands once more data gets released via the court proceedings.
So there are government officials doing things about it, but nobody ever seems to give them any fucking credit and every few years we vote in new politicians who gut the agency.
This is news to me! You got a link to a credible source? I’d love to read it so I can hopefully change my opinion some.
Thanks! That’s definitely more than I found. I didn’t know it goes back to March. Much appreciated.
Well you can find various FCC lawsuits going back decades but nobody ever talks about any of that stuff.
I think you mean FTC, but I’ll research to learn more. Thanks!
FTC oversees securities exchanges, primarily. Things like the stock market.
Funnily enough, not even neoliberals believe in the free market regardless of how much they spout its nonsense.
Thatcher was one of such neoliberals, she would always talk about how people should become self-sufficient and governments shouldn’t interfere in the free market for it to truly work and so on, but during her rule she was spending billions in subsidies for corporations (aka government interference in the free market). Of course, they weren’t called subsidies in the paperwork but some other bullshit like “public investment”, but their effect was still the same.
The truth is, a real market is never actually truly competitive. In an unregulated market, competing firms always collude with each other to set prices and wages for the industry. “Free market” ideology is based on nonsense, they’ve proven this over and over.
“Free market” ideology is based on nonsense, they’ve proven this over and over.
The theoretical model of the free market relies on perfectly rational actors acting on perfect information. If those are given, then resource allocation indeed is perfect.
Those conditions of course don’t exist in the real world, best we can do is to regulate away market failures to approach the theoretical ideal. That’s the kind of thing ordoliberalism argues for, and it can indeed work very well in practice. Random example: You want companies to use packaging with less environmental impact. You could have a packaging ministry that decides which company uses what packaging for what, creating tons of state bureaucracy – or you could say “producers, you’re now paying for the disposal of packaging yourself”. What previously was an externality for those companies suddenly appears on their balance sheet and they self-regulate to use way more cardboard, easily recyclable plastics, whatnot.
or you could say “producers, you’re now paying for the disposal of packaging yourself”
Definitely wouldn’t solve the problem as they’d just find the cheapest method of disposal to match the letter of the law and go about their day.
Corporations don’t self-regulate. They regulate the regulators. They work and then later buy the refs.
Definitely wouldn’t solve the problem as they’d just find the cheapest method of disposal to match the letter of the law and go about their day.
Those are illegal. Already were before. I’m not talking about a hypothetical, here, the policy is over 30 years old.
Corporations don’t self-regulate. They regulate the regulators. They work and then later buy the refs.
Yeah if they do that were you are then maybe elect better politicians. They sure as hell try it over here but it’s not nearly as much as an issue as e.g. in the US.
I dunno if I were in Germany I wouldn’t be so smug about electing politicians that prevent a slide into fascism.
Are you actually trying to make a point or did you simply want to be hostile.
My point is that it’s not as simple as setting “common sense” neoliberal rules when the corporations actively evade them. The problem in the US is also more complicated than you’re making it, here we need to basically redo a court which is full of people on lifetime appointments in order to roll back their ruling that political corruption is basically free speech.
The theoretical model of the free market relies on perfectly rational actors acting on perfect information. If those are given, then resource allocation indeed is perfect.
That’s not even remotely true. Natural monopolies exist because of how natural resources work, and oligopolies or undercutting of prices to destroy weak competition can happen with perfect knowledge by sellers and buyers.
weak competition can happen with perfect knowledge by sellers and buyers.
It can’t happen perfect rationality as it’s not in the rational interest of the majority to allow a minority their monopolies.
It’s a fucking theoretical model. The maths check out, that’s not the issue the issue is that it’s theory, with very glaring limitations.
In an unregulated market
There’s no such thing. All markets are regulated. Even ones dominated by cartels. Markets do not meaningfully exist without regulation. The only question is how they’re regulated.
In a free market, aren’t you free to collude with your competitors in order to fix prices?
In a Hayekian free market, yes. Most (all?) actual free markets prohibit cartels, though.
Is the pandemic really the main claimed reason in the US? Here in central Europe it seems that since February of 2022, all products have been coming exclusively from Ukraine, so that is why they just had to become more expensive you know…
That joke was good, but it’s old now. Everyone should understand that it was due to the peak of oil/gas prices due to the Ukraine war, that had cascade effects on the price of transportation, fertilizer, energy, groceries…which then compoounded into general inflation with some price gouging too to keep it from going back as quickly.
If you want to keep that from happening again, gradually reduce your dependence on fossil fuels for your security, not just to “be green”.
Far-left and far-right regimes are just a cycle, society just goes from right to the left and vice versa gradually, bad times make stong men and good times make weak men. That’s it.
That’s what those on top say every time there is an economic crisis: “just a passing storm”, time to buy low. But every time there is irreversible damage that accumulates until the ship suddenly sinks.
🤡
Research about human history and you will know what I’m talking about, the same phenomenon it’s seen in all the human history, it is just now it’s at global scale but it will be the same when human get into the space, far-left and far-right will keep fighting each other for resources.
Research about human history and you will know what I’m talking about
I would turn this right around and suggest you yourself look up the “Fremen mirage”, it’s very readable, and more or less a direct dissection and dismantling of the precise interpretation of history you present here.
Ok, so tell us, which is the side of the winners? Who are betting on. What are the odds. Explain it all for us.
The side of the winners it’s the side of the ones who pull the strings.
So Finland pulled all the strings when they fought the USSR? Are you sure about that?
And while we’re on the subject of the USSR, I assume you think that the people who had all the power in Imperial Russia were not the czar and his noblemen, considering they ended up on the losing end of a firing squad.
Research about human history
Whose writings specifically should we research? You do know that the study of history is not usually about objective facts, but interpreting historical accounts around those facts, right?
There is no consensus agreement on human history. Or fascism. If you want us to do research that argues your point, you’ll need to tell us who we’re supposed to read.
bad times make strong men and good times make weak men.
This concept seem to be rooted in the idea that hard work makes you stronger. If you work 12 hours in a mine you won’t become the weightlifting world champion, you will also get no time to study, research or improve all the way around.
This is a classic fascist talking point. The ideology is coming from inside the house on this one.
Bullshit. Fascists have been around for millenia longer than our peaceful mindsets. Back then it was more useful to be but recent advances in technology has made their usefulness nothing more than a nostalgic yearning for past and passed glories
For millennia? For thousands of years? Fascism was an outgrowth of capitalism that’s barely a century old.
Man has been around for thousands of years athis current sociointelligent level. It is not hard to extrapolate the current fascist mentalities back through the ages all the way through our barbarous past.
If it’s not hard can you do a basic breakdown for us? But for the record the first fascist country was Italy, and hey look at that it was a century ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fascism
Can you tell us more about the thousands of years of fascism that existed prior to Italy in the 1920’s?
Italy was not first. There was the mongols, the greeks, the spartans and probably many more that only rated a blurb in the history books
You are conflating monarchy with fascism for some reason.
The Mongols were governed by the Khan, who was an emperor.
The Greeks had multiple kings of the various polises (aside from Athens for a while), until they were united under Alexander the Great, who was an emperor.
The Spartans were Greek, so it’s weird you listed them separately.
Fascism and monarchy are both authoritarian, but authoritarianism is not fascism.
Max Weber would argue different.
Ok, is he here to post? Can you explain his views if you are speaking for him?
One of Weber’s main intellectual concerns was in understanding the processes of rationalisation, secularisation, and disenchantment. He formulated a thesis arguing that such processes were associated with the rise of capitalism and modernity. Weber also argued that the Protestant work ethic influenced the creation of capitalism in The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. It was the earliest part in his broader consideration of the world religions, as he later examined the religions of China, India, and ancient Judaism. Source
Weber died in 1920. Fascism had literally only existed by name for a year before he died. He was not arguing about fascism, hence fascism never being mentioned on that Wikipedia page.
Fascism was an outgrowth of capitalism that’s barely a century old.
This was what I was responding to, and the way it’s worded it seemed (to me at least) they were saying capitalism is barely a century old.
Oh, I see. My mistake.
I’m not entirely sure about millennia, but capitalism has been around for at least as long as currency has. That too has changed names but the idea of whoever is born with the most gets to steal the most is older than all existing civilizations.
Eh, you’re both wrong. Fascism is an invention of the 20th century and capitalism is mostly an invention of the 19th century (although The Wealth of Nations was published in 1776). Both ideologies have very deep roots that you’re conflating with their dominant modern expressions. Capitalism is specific ideology built around market economics, but markets alone are not capitalism. Likewise fascism is a specific authoritarian ideology, but authoritarianism is not in itself fascism.
What you’re saying is at best debatable, and it’s definitely not consensus in academia. Feudalism is substantially and fundamentally different from capitalism. Serfs worked the land not based on free contracts for a wage selling their labour as a commodity, but rather legally bound to their lord’s land. Access to consumer goods wasn’t through purchase as commodities in a free market, but through self-production and barter/debt within small communities. Peasants worked the land with their own means of production and made their own tools with their own means of production, and generally people weren’t hired working other people’s means of production.
Class struggle has existed for millennia, but capitalism is just the current predominant system of class struggle because through industrial development it overpowers preexisting systems that weren’t capitalist.
I used to be a libertarian and believed in the whole ‘freer the market freer the people’ shit…
But then I grew up.
Freer the market, freer the people… including the psychopaths with money and influence.
no shit, Sherlock. Still, glad to see it in the news.
Well of course it has, fascism is the end result of capitalism. Some would say it’s natural conclusion.
fascism is the end result of capitalism
I wonder what sort of echo chamber you must live in, in order to believe this
The real world.
lemmy.ml isn’t the real world
You dont have to be a tankie to understand that the neverending capitalist search for growth leads to exploitation and eventually backlash.
Late stage capitalism?
Fascist regimes generally came into existence in times of crisis, when economic elites, landowners and business owners feared that a revolution or uprising was imminent. Fascists allied themselves with the economic elites, promising to protect their social status and to suppress any potential socialist revolution.. Then Fascists allied themselves with the economic elites, promising to protect their social status and to suppress any potential socialist revolution. There’s more specifics here if you want them.
Fascist regimes generally came into existence in times of crisis
Too bad that modern capitalism produces wealth like no other system - the supposed resurgence of fascism never happened despite EU running capitalism for 79 years since the World War 2.
I would argue that it was not capitalist benevolence that kept social peace, it was the existence of the USSR that forced capitalist governments to make concessions to the social state to prevent communist influence from expanding westwards, flawed as it was.
capitalist benevolence
Capitalism is neither benevolent nor malevolent - it just happens it has most aligned incentives between egoistic actors
forced capitalist governments to make concessions
Really, really not. People were escaping from socialist USSR republics to western countries. This is why USSR decided to build a wall - their disfunctional system couldn’t compete
The New Deal is an example of capitalists understanding that you need to make some concessions to keep the peace, I’d call that sorta benevolent.
About the USSR: yes, people escaped it, but there was a chance that democracies would flip communist if you squeezed the population too much, so there was a political incentive to creating social policies to control capitalist forces. Without fear of the USSR agitators and backing, they would have had less incentive to compromise a.k.a. TINA.
the supposed resurgence of fascism never happened
hahhahahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahahhahaha
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10/10 argument. You lost
No, you just made a likely bad faith argument he couldn’t be bothered to engage with.
There has been a rise in far-right parties in many countries, many of which don’t officially label themselves as fascist for plausible deniability, while spouting clearly fascist rhetoric. Their current scapegoats of choice include (but are not limited to) immigrants and lgbtq people.
But if you’re not being disingenuous, what do you think fascism is?
There has been a rise in far-right parties
Extremist organizations exist always and everywhere - what both of you fail to understand is that they’re very small (although sometimes loud) minorities.
what do you think fascism is?
A totalitarian movement in pre ww2 Italy, that killed a lot of people.
What do you think it is?
Nah. This is all on you.
Just to be clear, your argument was Checks notes “Too bad that modern capitalism produces wealth like no other system” had the proof “the supposed resurgence of fascism never happened despite EU running capitalism for 79 years since the World War 2.” was truly a masterclass.
It’s like you had this well thought out idea, and really just made sure everyone understood that yo-
sorry, hahahahhahaha i just cant, every time I read it I laugh again, hahahahah thank you so much this made my day.
Enjoy being ratio’d though, the view is incredible from up here.
You live in your own little world, aren’t you?
being ratio’d
By people as misguided as you.
What a lemmy moment.
the supposed resurgence of fascism never happened despite EU running capitalism for 79 years since the World War 2.
If you took 5 minutes to look into elections in Europe and in US, you’d see that far-right are becoming more dominant in elections, white nationalists and neo-nazis are openly having marches on streets and attacking the “enemy” (like immigrants or muslims), Russia is pretty much an unofficial fascist state right now and so on.
You’re right, resurgence of fascism never happened, but it is happening right now.
happening right now
No, you’re just one of radicals on the opposite side of political spectrum. Everyone with the wrong opinion is called fascist these days.
Bait used to be believable
This isn’t a bait. I tried once explaining the differences between fascism and nazism and guess what? Got acussed of being fascist. The only reason was because others didn’t like my argument.
What, you think Stiglitz is some kind of dangerous tankie now? Jfc, talk about muddying the waters. The forces that motivated the germans to “seek shelter” from markets with the nazis are the same pushing people to vote for Le Pen, AfD today.
Even Orban’s little dictatorship is a product of the sovereign debt crisis of the EU in 2014. If neoliberals are so blind that they lose touch with their people, voters will seek shelter from market forces either to the left or to the far-right, depending on how they understand what is happening.
producesextracts wealthextracts wealth
Produces. Wealth comes from efficient allocation of resources - capitalist free markets are really good at it.
Oh my sweet summer child.
Efficiency under capitalism?
We waste tremendous amounts of food but people go hungry.
We produce absurd levels of clothing, much of which is destroyed and sent to landfills without being worn, but there are people who need it.
We have more houses than unhoused by a huge factor.
Capitalism optimizes for profit and profit only. Sometimes that leads to good outcomes, sometimes it leads to bad outcomes.
It’s not “efficient” in terms of taking care of people’s needs. It’s only efficient in terms of producing profits for the owner and investor classes.
We waste tremendous amounts of food but people go hungry.
This waste may look big in absolute numbers, but probably isn’t meaningful as percentage of total economy - we’re wealthy so many of us can afford to be a little wasteful.
Capitalism optimizes for profit and profit only. Sometimes that leads to good outcomes, sometimes it leads to bad outcomes.
Usually bad outcomes are the corner cases - I’m perfectly aware that they exist (harmful monopolies, CO2, ect.) But it’s the role of solid legal framework to deal with these issues.
On the other hand you have at best no idea what sort of pathologies can arise in alternatives to capitalism, and at worst it can be repeat of the of USSR or North Korea.
Exactly, capitalist markets are really good at extracting resources from the land and labour from the people to make a profit, they just don’t know where to stop until it’s too late unless they are regulated.
extracting resources from the land and labour
You’re trying to paint production in a negative way, while in reality competitive markets converge to most fair prices
Law of supply and demand dictates that too low wage will fail to attract workers, while too high wage will result in product that is too expensive and won’t attract customers willing to buy.
It’s a beautiful, self regulating communication network that pays well for stuff that is in demand and pays little for things nobody wants
They’re also getting increasingly more efficient at funneling profits to the top, rather to the greatest value producers: labourers. This is wage theft. Get it all the way to 100% and you have slavery.
Though important to note that slavery does not just meant you don’t get paid. Though I don’t think anyone needs a splainer on that.
Yep, nothing inefficient about an intern commuting via plane from South Carolina to New York everyday because it’s much cheaper than living in New York. /s 🙄
Fascism was maintained in several European countries way beyond 1940s, such as my homeland Spain. There were also fascist regimes after WW2 outside Europe, such as in Chile or arguably in South Korea and Taiwan.
ya thats not a bug thats a feature
Yes. That is how it works. It doesn’t take a genius to extrapolate these outcomes. It actually takes converted effort through propaganda and misinformation to maintain the level of cognitive dissonance we have about it.
the level of cognitive dissonance we have
USA #1! EAT IT COMMMIES!
USA: “Here we own nothing and are happy. Eat it commies!”
By the nine divines… Why does it take libs 80 years extra to reach the conclusions that Marxists have already described in detail in the last century…
He is not taking a Marxist position. Possibly agreeing with parts of the same analysis as Marx but definitely not the same prescription. Not every criticism of Capitalism is an endorsement of Marxism
He is not taking a Marxist position
Precisely that’s why it’s taken him 80 years longer than Marxists to reach that conclusion.
Not every criticism of Capitalism is an endorsement of Marxism
Which is why non-marxist anti-capitalist movements such as Salvador Allende’s socialism in Chile, or Mosaddegh’s Iran, inevitably fail within a few years due to the lack of understanding of class struggle and the history of capitalism.
I take it you have a Marxist state as a counter example showing it’s superiority and longevity?
USSR lasted much longer than Allende’s project, and Cuba is still ongoing
The question was superiority and longevity. Are you claiming those are both superior states as well?
The USSR and Cuba are much more desirable than the short-lived wannabe socialist regime that led to Pinochet’s dictatorship, yes, how do you not see this?
Mainly because we spent 80 years being told to snitch on our neighbors and that commies are the devil himself come to wipe the world clean of good moral people.
It’s still going to be a long time till Marx is given an objective position in western society, if ever.
because they live in a delusional fantasy world where belief in things corellates with warm fuzzy feelings more than congruence with material reality, “truth” is socially reinforced, and… shit, shit this reminds me of something.
Most people who were paying attention to the world when 1929 happened and witnessed the consequences up to 1945 are dying now. The people who were paying attention to the world when 2008 happened haven’t seen how the story ends.
Oddly, 1929-1945 and 2008-2024 are the same distance apart. Were you trying to do that or is it just eerie coincidence?
eheh, I’m a pessimist, what can I say 😅
So, TL;DR: copy Europe?
Parts of it, sure. But not all of it. Europe hasn’t been immune to the current rise in fascism. But there are clearly some countries in Europe that are fairing better than others.
