My wife and I are mostly vegetarian (vegetarian, plus meat once per week plus leftovers or every other week) just because we like it more, environmental reasons, healthier, etc. We have zero problem with 95% of vegans, I’ll cook vegan meals if any vegan friends or friends of friends are coming over, eat at mostly or fully vegan restaurants if going out with vegan friends, etc. It’s not a big deal and has no reason to be one.
However - I say 95% for a reason. The 5% are people like my MIL. She lectures us about how eating any animal products is wrong every time we see her, spouts bogus facts with no actual sources to anyone she can get to listen (going vegan will cure cancer, diabetes, and autism within 8 weeks), and is generally insufferable to be around now because she will bring it up out of nowhere.
I don’t hate vegans at all, I hate people that are pretentious assholes about being vegan
It is wrong though. Like you clearly care but what, it’s ok to do a little evil as a treat? why?
Evil is a relative term. I could argue that capitalism is evil, or buying things that can’t be recycled, or Catholicism. Maybe start with asking yourself how you justify doing things someone else might think of as evil before using it as some sort of magic bullet argument.
Forcibly impregnating someone, kidnapping their baby, and taking their breast milk is like when you buy potatoes.
If you said gold or diamonds I would absolutely agree with you. Potatoes? That’s mainly just child labor, wage theft, and giving farm workers cancer.
I don’t hate vegans at all, I hate people that are pretentious assholes about being vegan
Which is zero vegans.
I’ve definetly heard plenty of people making fun of or discriminating against others with dietary restrictions due to their religions. Hell I’ve also heard people making fun of others with lactose intolerance or celiac disease…
We can and should strive for better, but sometimes people can just be terrible 🫤
In my experience it is not NEARLY as prevalent as when someone learns that you are vegan or finds out about vegan communities and whatnot. People make countless memes about vegans for example, but when was the last time you saw a meme about someone choosing to eat Halal? Because to my knowledge there is no scientific study on the different experiences of these groups it is impossible to talk about this topic in any way that isn’t anecdotal but for what it’s worth I have been all over the US and the anecdotal experience that I have had is so overwhelming that I refuse to believe someone is arguing in good faith if they are claiming that, for example, someone eating Halal has even a remotely similar experience to that of vegans.
My guess is that this is because people tend to associate other dietary or lifestyle decisions as being just a different way to live. Like oh, that person is Muslim or Jewish and that influences their diet. And they don’t take that as a personal judgement anymore than they do when they learn that that person is Muslim or Jewish to begin with. But with veganism it is usually not something that a person is raised into. It is a decision that that person has made after learning more about the animal agriculture industry and it is usually for ethical reasons primarily. Not because a religious book told them to. Therefore they hear that someone is vegan and are instantly defensive in a way that isn’t true with halal, kosher, etc.
As you’ve said, this is all anecdotal, but I’d guess that non-vegan non-muslim non-jewish people most often have to “deal with” vegans as opposed to the other two. A quick search says that in the US there are more vegans than muslim and jewish people combined (without even including vegetarians, which definetly get lumped in the same group). Also, there are definetly other kinds of discrimination against the religious groups going on, so maybe their dietary restrictions doesn’t exactly top the list of things to “meme” about.
I’m definetly not saying that vegans are wrong or that they deserve the amounts of “jokes” on them on, far from it, I just wanted to share my experience with “jokes” in very bad taste.
Never shamed a vegan, and I was one myself for 5 years. I think people get a negative impression of vegans because vegans so commonly share their reasoning, even zealously or evangelically so, unsolicited.
It gets annoying. And I felt that so much (in others) while I was a vegan that I stopped explaining why and just said “personal choice” when asked.
If someone wants the whole story, they’ll ask for it. We don’t need the morality, the economics, and the all-to-often (admit it) holier-than-thou diatribe vegans are so wont to subject others to.
As with any diet, moderation is the key.
I think “personal choice” comes off as slightly dismissive, as if it’s below your effort to even discuss.
Personally, I just go with “for ethical reasons, plus, its good for the environment” and I’ve never had anyone chuck a a tantrum.
In my experience, the reactions depend a lot on the people you talk to and well, what you look like.
Like, I’ve got a tiny lady colleague who’s vegan and she’s never been in a conflict from being vegan.
Meanwhile, me as a big dude, I will get various males who take it as a personal affront:
- those who are just insecure about their own food choice,
- those who take every interaction with other males as a competition for who’s better (me telling them I’m doing it for ethical reasons means I’m saying their ethics are bad),
- those who are stuck in their old ways (women can eat salads, not men though),
- and last but definitely not fucking least, (ex-)military dudes who are personally disappointed that, despite me having the physique of their military buddies, I have different values.
This is especially also amplified on the countryside, where not only progressive ideas take longer to arrive, you’ve also got farmers with skin in the game.
In my hometown, there’s a pig farmer. Holy fuck, for that guy, my mere existence was a statement that his entire livelihood is immoral.
Halal eaters and teetotalers don’t try to preach as and convert as often, perhaps?
(I support vegans and I dont mock them, for the record.)
Halal eaters do try to convert you, but to their religion, not their eating habits.
They are also made fun of for that.
People genuinely don’t like to be told what they are doing is wrong.
Why do people call it preaching?
It’s baffling that “Hey maybe hamburgers aren’t worth kilometers of cows chained with their face in a feed trough. Arranged this way so that the only activity they can engage in is to gorge themselves on low quality feed frequently filled with bits of other cows (backfeeding). Maybe they like have feelings and deserve better than this followed by a dehydrated wait in a death line in some artificially lit temple to screams and blood and horror?”
Is talked about in the same language as “Invisible sky person is deeply concerned about your masturbating habits and you are going to suffer for it!”
Why do people call it preaching?
I was expecting something like “some just mention it and move on”. Instead…
It’s baffling that “Hey maybe hamburgers aren’t worth kilometers of cows chained with their face in a feed trough. Arranged this way so that the only activity they can engage in is to gorge themselves on low quality feed frequently filled with bits of other cows (backfeeding). Maybe they like have feelings and deserve better than this followed by a dehydrated wait in a death line in some artificially lit temple to screams and blood and horror?”
lol
Why do people call it preaching?
Because despite it being logical to a point, usually the ones who wish to talk about can’t actually explain the rationale for some of the more extremely ends of the philosophy.
I’m completely against industrial meat farming, but for instance game meat from deer that were killed for deer management?
Obviously a vegan will take the position that “eating meat is wrong, you’re killing just for pleasure” usually. Which obviously isn’t true, as there’s no “just for pleasure”, becsuse we’re not talking about trophy hunting, but deer management, which is crucial and without which a lot of animals (and humans) would end up sick, suffering and dying as the ecosystem would overpopulate with deer, leading to a cascade of bad consequences, destroying the environment and the animals in it.
I support vegan products and consider myself a flexitarian, but I do also consume the occasional meat product. Preferably when it’s cruelty free game meat.
Sheep are also another thing. Unless we plan to systematically eradicate the species, then we must tend to some sheep at least, which will mean shearing them, as that’s required for their health. So then we end up with wool. Should that wool not be used? Would it be cruel to use that wool?
That of course again doesn’t mean I’m not fervently against the horrible practices of the large sheep industry. It’s just a question of “can’t you see the eventual problems that taking a position so extreme would yield?”
And questioning these things can upset people, as it’d require flexing the ideology a bit, and that’s something a lot of fervent vegans seem to have issues with. Which is apparent through say, using words like “carnist” to describe anyone who isn’t 100% vegan. Almost in the same way dogmatic religions call anyone disagreeing “a heretic”.
In the same way that monotheistic Abrahamic religions are, most of the “fighting” rhetoric of vegans is very much dogmatic.
You’ve invented a vegan in your head to be smarter than. My vegan stance on culls is found here: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/11017095
Context of super necessary (apparently) kangaroo culls.
Species don’t suffer, only individuals do. This defense of sheep implies we need to keep breeding pugs, or that if I were to make supersheep who lived ever minute of the day screaming in agony it would be bad to stop breeding them. An absurd stance.
In the interim selling wool creates perverse incentives and if it’s a humanitarian effort (so to speak) we should use it for ends which don’t profit us.
Your objections are standard and tedious, your examples of extremism in the ideology are actually examples of moderate stances.
I’ve never met a vegan that finds it morally objectional to scavange meat, assuming you aren’t creating perverse incentives. Our objections are to suffering, you should probably stop tilting at strawmen.
You’re a mod and didn’t like the reply so you deleted it.
And you pretend you don’t know what I mean when I say some vegans get upset and have issues with replying to these arguments, lol.
You’re welcome to engage in good faith. I have infinite patience for anyone genuinely interested in discussion. It is against the rules of this community to post antivegan rhetoric.
Your initial comment was borderline butI decided to engage in good faith. Then you didn’t engage with anything I said and said a few random gotchas. Other mods are welcome to intervene if they felt I removed your comment in error.
If you would like to rephrase your reply and write a better one you are welcome to do so.
There’s no gotchas, and it is in good faith.
This post is about how vegans engage with non-vegans.
I noted that often many vegans who are arguing on online forums (this is something I also specified in both comments, because I acknowledge and respect the fact that small online communities don’t necessarily represent everyone, or even most people) are often very dogmatic. This can be seen from them getting very upset when they can’t answer certain rhetoric.
Case in point; you deleting a reply you found hard to answer and then pretending I’m arguing in bad faith.
You clearly say that you think vegans don’t have an issue with “scavanged” meat. (“Scavenged”, btw.) This implies that you think vegans would agree that hunting and eating game meat is acceptable and even necessary. Do you think that? (Note, I’m not assuming you do. I’m asking, in good faith.)
The second question is about sheep, since you clearly say that stopping their breeding is the answer. Stopping breeding will lead to the extinction of a species, this is a rather clear consequence. Again, I’m asking this in good faith, exactly because it’s a hard question to answer. Asking the hard questions is often when the dogmatic attitudes are revealed.
But it is in the interest veganism to try to satisfactorily answer these questions to develop as an ideology. If it can’t do that, then it has to change. If it can’t answer, but won’t change either, then it is dogmatic.
You can only comment here under the guise of good faith for so long. You’re trying to bait a certain response so that you can “prove” a point and put words in other people’s mouths.
If you can do the following:
-
comment on the content of my post on culling
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talk about hunting and perverse incentives
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edit your reply in the context of sheep species perpetuation to address what I had to say about super sheep/pugs, how wool is used
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edit your reply to differentiate hunting versus scavenging
I will engage with you. Otherwise I will be recommending you get banned.
-
I’m vegan with a somewhat differing view on culls, having worked for the EPA and with national parks. I agree that a better solution than culling would be ideal, and that no life wants to be killed or population managed. However, we cull because of our past failings. We wiped out natural predators in many areas that kept a balance, and now, if left unchecked, deer will eat themselves into starvation, and devastate their ecosystem. It would be death on a massive scale if unmanaged, and would even affect humans. I think it’s a far smaller crime to kill a few deer and manage populations at safe levels, than to allow the mass starvation of entire ecosystems because of our past destruction of that balance.
Better solutions have been proposed. Ideally, where we can, we reintroduce native predators and protect their populations until they’re stable. Is that different from killing for population control? We’re introducing animals for the explicit purpose of hunting and killing deer in order to keep a balance. If that’s wrong, then should we kill all predators? Of course not, but I digress. Those aren’t arguments I think you’d make, and I’m not suggesting you’d agree whatsoever, but those are the perspectives we think about. Many many smart people have tackled this issue, and we have not found a better solution than culling. Sometimes, we’ve done some of what you suggested, and attempted to reduce fertility rates, though I see the same moral issue there as well. No sentient creature wants to be neutered or drugged to prevent reproduction. However, it’s better than hunting in certain circumstances, and something has to be done. This isn’t a problem that can be ignored to reduce environmental impacts in other areas. Overpopulation will happen, and it is devastating. I wish there was a simple solution, but we made mistakes when we destroyed the native ecosystem, and now it falls to us to keep it from totally collapsing.
But why not humans? and why make a sport of it and celebrate it, why eat them?
Like if species with a tendency to breed to ecosystem collapse should be killed, aren’t we top of the list?
Without getting all Agent Smith about it, yes, humans are an ecological disaster. I’m not trying to throw charged what-ifs back and forth. We solve the problems we can. Can you clarify what you’re saying? I agree that no animal should be killed by humans, but I also recognize that we must work with the solutions we have. Are you suggesting that we stop cullings and allow overpopulation to happen?
I strongly agree that hunting should not be a sport. I also believe that if we’re going to kill an animal, we should at least use the corpse to feed back into the ecosystem, and I don’t begrudge those that eat the things they hunt, if necessary. Many people subsist off hunting to survive, and while I disagree with the concept of hunting another animal for food, I won’t suggest that they starve, especially when they’re filling a vital ecosystem role. If we don’t need the food though, we should not be hunting animals for food. I don’t know if my opinion is well founded enough to defend the position that if an animal is killed, tragically necessarily, for culling, it should not be eaten. I believe that to be true, but I can’t defend that position with anything but my personal feelings and beliefs. On some level, I understand the argument that if an animal must be killed, then it’s wasteful to not use the meat. Regardless of either argument, I strongly disagree with trophy hunting, and find any hunting for sport abhorrent.
I hope you can see the nuanced nature of my position. I’m not trying to play devil’s advocate or be contrarian. I have a well-formed belief from my experiences, and I am trying to argue my position, and don’t think you have to agree with me, nor do I expect you to. I do not see a large scale alternative to culling at the moment. I think those types of alternatives are being pursued by some in the industry, but the scale is small. I also do not believe it’s an option to allow populations to grow uncontrollably. I believe allowing that to happen would be as morally reprehensible as hunting for sport, as it’s neglecting a duty we have to sustain an ecosystem that we damaged. I am open and interested in any and all alternatives to culling, but I’ve heard none that haven’t been tried or that haven’t been able to succeed at scale.
I went to sleep, I may write something more sensible when I have more patience but I suspect the difference is mostly speciesm. I think we ought not to discriminate in ways we treat species and standards we have about appropriate interventions. I agree that in the short terms there may not be good options but like suppose there are 5 spots on a liferaft and 10 people, that doesn’t really make leaving 5 people to drown OK and you defs shouldn’t outsource it to random yahoos that enjoy killing people.
Given we can’t like distribute condoms and the pill to like kangaroos or deer or whatever there may be no good answers in the short term, but killing should be the absolute last resort. Like we should be closing farms for more land, managing forests for better outcomes, reducing fertility if we can and so on long before we kill. If we do kill we need to make sure it is done with a sole focus on harm reduction, which the way culls are done now is defs not true and we ought to be happy to apply the same reasoning to human beings (basically that we have tried everything else we can and because we can’t reason violence is all that’s left).
@Dasus @naevaTheRat Why do you care about this stuff? Why does your energy flow towards arguing specifics with vegans? Go engage with meat eaters that don’t care whether or not their food was factory farmed instead.
Just curious, do you not see how that would frustrate someone who is not vegan? If your goal is to be confrontational, that little speech definitely hits the mark, but if you’re not, perhaps reflect on the preaching.
Personally, eat what you want to eat. The more vegans and vegetarians around, the better those food choices will be for everyone.
Why would it be frustrating? It is just true. There’s no personal attack there, I’m not calling someone anything. It’s just reality, if you eat hamburgers that is what happened to get it to your plate. If you don’t think cows have feelings it shouldn’t bother you, if you think cows have feelings but they don’t matter very much it shouldn’t bother you, if you do find it bothersome to think about but eat hamburgers that’s on you not me.
Quite seriously, either you are ok with what you do or you are not. How is talking about it frustrating or confrontational?
I don’t feel bad when I prune a tree, and if you talk about rows and rows of fruit trees being pruned and how they’re slathered in nutrients and watered heavily to produce fruit before a harvester violently shakes them I feel neither confronted nor frustrated. I have no reason to even slightly suspect that treatment is wrong. Surely if feedlots and slaughterhouses are morally good or neutral I would at worst seem vaguely silly.
Ok, so I’m sure when you pick up your iPhone you’d love to have someone tell you how much abuse and suffering so many steps in the supply chain involve from the raw material harvesting, terrible working conditions to assemble them, etc.
Just pointing out that what you are doing is the literal definition of preaching. Not sure why you are surprised.
You know what, I would. If there is a problem that I’m unknowingly part of, it’s better to know and maybe do something about it than to ignore it.
I can’t say I will go live to a hut im the forest with no technology, but will at least be mindful of it and tried to minimize it. If I could afford a new iPhone, I’d certainly rather buy me a Fairphone. There are options and the options are a spectrum, not one or the other.
Yes actually, I don’t deal with problems by ignoring them. That’s uh, why I have a second hand phone.
See, when something I’m doing upsets me and conflicts with my self image as a person who tries to do good I stop doing that thing. What do you do?
Preaching doesn’t mean lying or talking about unimportant things, nothing you said contradicts the idea its preaching.
Preaching is when you describe your beliefs in an attempt to convert other people, or to change their behavior.
Non-vegan here. I was going to reply one time, but even tho I was supporting y’all I realized it’s not really my place to speak. This community is supposed to be your safe space, and I respect that. I hope y’all have a good one and wish you all luck.
Gotta ask, if you support vegans/veganism I assume that means you take it as at least more right than wrong. Is that the case? if so what’s holding you back from joining our feeble, protein deficient ranks?
I just ask because personally I spent a few years being like “Yeah these people are correct and don’t deserve the hate but oysters? Is that really a priority concern?” before realising that was a baffling stance and I should align my actions with the 99% I agreed with and worry about the rest later if it ever came up.
Fair question. Right now I live with my family, and basically everything we make has meat in it and since I don’t cook I don’t really get a say in it. Everything I choose to eat for myself is vegetarian, so I’m at doing a little.
Even tho it’s hard for me to stop rn, it’s not like you guys are wrong about the horrible conditions and treatment of animals in farms so it would be hard for me to argue against y’all.
It can be difficult if you’re not managing your own food, you can of course choose what you wear or eat when you get food out and so on. That is vegan. It is not a purity cult, it is about doing what we can.
Thanks for sharing and helping me. <3
Don’t post pictures of text
Pictures of text should have accompanying alt text. I’ll see if we can add that as a rule
Thanks. Can you also add a rule that it should have a link to the source, if it is a screenshot of a webpage?
I see a lot of pictures of headlines or tweets, where it could easily be spreading misinformation. But just a link to the source solves the issue of accessibility for the blind and also citing the source for verifying the accuracy of the information.
I still remember fondly an occasion at a wedding when my friend group all got placed at the same table, and we were 90% veg with one couple who ate meat. They remarked on it, and we all spent the rest of the meal joking about how it felt to be the minority, and they had to field questions like, “If you were on a desert Island with only vegetables, what would you do?”
I think it’s because a good number of vegans are, shall we say, a little bit too vocal and judgemental about those that are not vegan.
If someone tells me they’re vegan, and I say cool, I do eat meat, and he responds with “you’re a murderer” then you are bound to get people looking weird at you
I say cool
not cool tho
I never had a meat eater stand up next to me harassing me for eating a salad while I was eating out.
I wouldn’t call it “a good number.” It’s a very small minority. Outside of the memery of the militant vegan, I’ve never experienced a vegan preaching to me about dietary habits.
Where I live its in the legal gray zone to talk shit about religion, so theres that. And so far that I know, no vegan have commited terror acts because of the ill treatment of vegans.
I don’t make fun of vegans, everyone can make their own choice on what they can eat. But I do treat people who eat halal food the same and I don’t agree with either.
Although by comparing to halal/religious reasons for diet then are you saying veganism is akin to a religion?
Veganism is a philosophical belief and is regarded as such in the EU and UK at least, yes. Veganism isn’t about food though, it’s about everything touching animal rights and abuse.
It is akin to relgion in the sense that it is a moral question for the person and not a health concern.
Not sure why people get so touchy when religion is brought up.
Well, tens of thousands of people are murdered every year, and millions have been brutally tortured and murdered for religious reasons over human history. From crusades to jihads, to caste systems. So, you’ll see, it is a very sensitive topic when a subset of the population thinks their religion gives them permission to exact violence upon others.
So then eating meat is a religion? With billions of animals being murdered and such…
Just fyi, one of the community rules is “Carnist rhetoric & Anti-vegans are not allowed.” which is why so many top level replies are removed. I (and I assume many others) interpreted this post as “carnists, why do you do this?” but it’s NOT and per community rules we’re not allowed to explain or defend.
This is a safe place for vegans and we should leave it to them.
Sorry for imposing, I’ll leave now. Mods, maybe you should pin a post for people like me who wander in here without knowing that rule? Might cut down on the carnist replies.
I cannot speak for any other mod, being newly minted, but this is not a vegans only sub.
Respectful and contextually appropriate replies are welcome but replies specifically hostile or following standard, trivially disputed, rhetoric will be removed.
For example I would not remove a reply like “What is it that determines whether or not something or someone is ok to eat in your eyes?” but I would remove “don’t you know grass screams when you cut it. You’re just hypocritical!”
Basically if you’re posting stuff to own the vegans, explain why vegans are wrong, or saying something against veganism that a trivial search or five minutes considering the opposite position would show as false or grossly distorted your comment will be removed.
I am currently working to make better decisions on what I eat and what products i consume. I’ve already switched over to chemicals and clothing that don’t test on animals or contain animal products. I’ve made changes to the diet, and I have taken “Meatless Mondays” out to only having meat once per month. I still eat eggs (I raise my own chickens), and I still eat honey (beekeeper). I haven’t had cows milk in years, but I really struggle with cheese. I’m getting there.
You’re right: it is a struggle. Your body gets used to what it knows. And if I can say it this way: I don’t think most carnists consume animal products specifically for the suffering of other animals. They do so because the food tastes the way they expect, the clothes feel the way they expect, and the products work the way they expect. I just don’t think that they think about it.
Like naeva said comments by nonvegans are allowed. The rule doesn’t explicitly preclude anyone who isn’t vegan from engaging in conversation. What it does not allow is for bad faith comments, strawmen arguments (carnist rhetoric and the like), and those that are hostile to vegans (antivegans) to come here and as the OP would put it “meatsplain”.
I remove comments that are advocating for animal abuse, carnist propaganda, speciesism, and those made by antivegans.
Discussions about veganism here are heavily skewed as vegans are outnumbered vastly and it tends to be a sensitive topic due to cognitive dissonance. This makes it so that actual discussion is very hard as it often gets overun by reactionary takes and hostility to empathy.
Pinning posts has not helped in the past as most people don’t read it or refuse to listen to the message before commenting here.
This is why I launched https://vegantheoryclub.org I delete the carnist posts lol
I support purging animal abuse “content”
It’s the same mindset that gets mad about things being woke
Yes we do. We make fun of everything. If you can’t be made fun of, you’re the bad guy.
OP just can’t see it because he’s not one of those other things. He’s obviously fixated on his own bullshit that he does in hopes of being respected for it.
Seems like the obvious answer is that religion is a protected class and veganism isn’t.
What you’re referring to are legal classifications that prevent discrimination in very specific circumstances such as when applying for a job. When someone decides to make fun of vegans they absolutely DO NOT think to themselves “is that a legally protected class? No? Okay, I’m in the clear.” This reasoning is blatantly incorrect.
If this were the actual reason then why do people also discriminate against groups that are protected classes like women? The answer is because we aren’t in a court. We are talking about social values, not legal ones. Despite how much of a fucking asshole it would make someone to be misogynistic in their daily life there is nothing preventing them from doing so other than the fear of being outcast by their peers. It only becomes illegal in very specific circumstances.
They aren’t consciously going through a checklist in their head. But legal influences societal. Maybe in the past they made fun of someone’s funny hat, got in trouble for it, got annoyed at a preachy vegan and now shits on vegans instead.
It protects all religions and a wide range of philosophical beliefs including atheism, humanism, agnosticism, veganism and pacifism.
Edit: Found it
Don’t you know that everyone in the internet is American? Thanks for the link :)
No class is protected from comedy.
I’m vegan and i make fun of everyone who only eats food touched by a magician. I don’t even understand how they compare. One is a choice the other ones got indoctrinated by people who vut their dicks for fun.
